interval training advice please !

[berty bassett]

hi its me again willing to make myself seem an idiot once more . i want to up my overall fitness and speed at biking and have looked at interval training . i am reasonable fit and can keep 18-20 mph going as long as i need to , also stamina isnt really the problem ( just done two 100milers back to back ) but looking at time trials and would liked to up my pace - tried one and av was 22mph . i think i kind of interval train already by always going for it up hills then slowing down at top for others ( not being big headed - i am the youngest there at 45 and should be faster ) does anyone know of a proper regime that works for them ? i know that i have left it late in life to be worried about going faster but if i could creep up that average i would be well chuffed -i have got in the horrible habit of staying in the small ring and keeping cadence high , but when i move into the big ring ,the cadence comes down and speed stays the same so i am ready for people to say push harder just want a way of making that possible as i aint a slacker - thanks in advance for any advise

 

[Nosaj]

I have just started looking at time trials and ways that I can improve. I am going to build the following into some training rides:

Buy a set of clip on Aero bars and sort my posture whilst on turbo and looking into a mirror.
Get out as many cycle training/HRM training/HIIT/Interval etc books from my library and (hopefully) read them to get a better idea of what I need to do.
Training with a HRM and then building in intervals based on my personal heart rate zones
Fartlek training sprint to for eg a lamp post, recover, sprint again and look to build intensity and number of intervals each time
Hill repeats for general leg strength looking at increasing gears up the hill over a period of weeks
Long slow recovery rides also.
Squats and stretching off the bike together with pilates once a week.
I would hope that even I done nothing on the list above just riding a 10 TT each week coupled with the club ride every sunday I should see an improvement in my time over the season albeit it won't be anywhere near what I could do if I followed my own advice.

Does it work for me ? I dunno I haven't tried it yet but I will probably find out at by the end of august.

 

[Arsen Gere]

I've been reading up on this recently so here is my summary. Your 100% effort is roughly the best time/effort for 10 mile TT.

Intervals at your 100% ( 12 x 60s) and ( 4 x 8 min) 80% peak aerobic power don’t improve your 40km tt time on a bike, short intervals (12 x 30s 4.5 min rec) at 175% and medium intervals (8 x 4 min 90sec rec) at 85% do. It is not unreasonable to expect 2k per hour improvement in speed or around 5%. With three sessions a week this can be done in four weeks.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10331896
http://www.timetrialtraining.co.uk/PPIntervalTraining.htm

HTH

 

[berty bassett]

thanks for the input and help but i am baffled ! when i give 100% i give 100% and that means i have no more to give - am i now suppose to find another 75% from somewhere ? i hate to be a negative nelly but i aint got it - anywhere - if you have 100% of a pint in a pint pot - you cant fit another 75% in - wheres it going to go - surely if i can give an extra 75 just like that then problem is solved and i am now super fast - that was easy ! what i was looking for was some sort of training regime that is used to build up the speed in some sort of programme that is known to work - i dont mean to sound flippant as i might not be understanding what that meant - but if it does mean double my effort just like that after years of trying then sorry but its not possible without being told more info . i am lost in a confusing world

 

[HLaB]

I did my first TT the other day and 22mph aint bad I was 22.5mph and there was quite a few people slower; there was also a lot faster but they were on nice TT bikes with Zipp/aero wheels, tri bars etc. and aero kit and I was on a regular road bike with £93 wheels and regular kit, well that's my excuse anyway not the fact that this numpty stayed in the lower chain ring by mistake for the first 2 miles

 

[VamP]

thanks for the input and help but i am baffled ! when i give 100% i give 100% and that means i have no more to give - am i now suppose to find another 75% from somewhere ? i hate to be a negative nelly but i aint got it - anywhere - if you have 100% of a pint in a pint pot - you cant fit another 75% in - wheres it going to go - surely if i can give an extra 75 just like that then problem is solved and i am now super fast - that was easy ! what i was looking for was some sort of training regime that is used to build up the speed in some sort of programme that is known to work - i dont mean to sound flippant as i might not be understanding what that meant - but if it does mean double my effort just like that after years of trying then sorry but its not possible without being told more info . i am lost in a confusing world

What Arsene means is that if you imagine that the intensity you can sustain over 1 hour is a certain level (let's call it 100, but not % as that might be confusing), then biggest training adaptation will come from training for shorter periods at intensity that is (significantly) higher (he's calling it 175 - but perhaps using heart rate percentages of your HRmax would be more helpful) that you may be only able to sustain for much shorter periods. Some of my toughest workouts use tabata intervals which are only 20 seconds in duration, but at absolute maximum intensity, and with only 10 second recovery period before the next one. By 4th or 5th rep you want to die

If you just keep riding at 100 all the time, then you will not see similar training adaptations.

 

[Nosaj]

Arsen Gere has linked to some very good sites that describe intervals and training plans.

Cycling fitness has some generic training plans in their magazine this month

There are also quite a few cycling training books out there.

Do you have a heart rate monitor? if so have a read up of the sites then all these suggestions become a little bit clearer and you can take an off the shelf plan and tailor it for you.

 

[berty bassett]

aahh - i see . its all a bit clearer now . i didn't want to upset anyone but just couldn't understand where this extra effort came from . now i am ready for it . yes i have a heart monitor and i am enjoying working hard with that - what i done was rough calculations 220 - age as max then trying to keep av at 80 % what is a good workout and keeps me reasonable fit but no faster - i will now try these short sharp shocks and slowly increase them - as now its been explained they make total sense and and if i mix them in anyway - they cant make me slower only better so bring it on - i will report back tomorrow . thanks everybody

 

[Nosaj]

220-age is a good estimate. There are a few methods to calculate your MHR. I thought I would be clever and take an average of all those methods on line the answer I got was equivalent to 220-age + or - 1 !!

Cycling Fitness has a very good max HR calculator that involves working out your real heart rate whilst actually performing hill repeats. This should provide a far more accurate MHR

I will dig it out of the cupboard and try and praisee it on here for you

 

[HLaB]

220-age doesn't seem to be a good estimate from experience or other folks reports, I consistently hit a HR around 196-9bpm (202bpm is the max believable I've recorded), the formula would make me 18 in that case but I'm just over 2 times that This site has a whole load of formulas but none of them seem right for me; the max 186, was my average on the Cleish Hill Climb (My actual time was 7.40 the winner was 6.06 )

 

[amaferanga]

220-age could easily be out by 15 or 20bpm so you really do need to find out your max HR for yourself.

As for the recommendations to do short intervals - that's odd. Everything I've read about increasing threshold power (which is what you want to do for TT'ing) recommends doing threshold intervals, at least until you plateau, which if you're new to doing proper training will take several months. That means doing intervals that are at least 10 minutes long - 2x20min is common, but you can do 3x15min or 4x10min or 2x30min or whatever fits best with the roads you have where you live. The important thing is the time you spend at or near to your threshold (defined by the effort you can just maintain for an hour when you're fresh). In terms of HR, you should be aiming to reach >~90% (true) HR max by the end of each interval.

The idea is to pace them so you can maintain the same effort throughout - avoid setting off too hard and fading badly towards the end. Pacing is best done with a power meter, but HR and RPE can be used with a bit of common sense (if using HR allow your HR to rise slowly over the first few minutes - don't try to get into your 'zone' within seconds by going balls out from the off).

I think people often recommend short intervals because they're mentally much, much easier to do. Sprinting for 20 or 30 seconds then recovering before repeating is a doddle compared to doing a 20 minute threshold interval, but the threshold interval will be way more effective at improving 10/25 mile TT times.

 

[VamP]

I think people often recommend short intervals because they're mentally much, much easier to do. Sprinting for 20 or 30 seconds then recovering before repeating is a doddle compared to doing a 20 minute threshold interval, but the threshold interval will be way more effective at improving 10/25 mile TT times.

Not sure if you're referring to my comment, but I was not suggesting that the OP follows my regime. Just want to make that clear. It was meant purely as an illustration.

The 20 second tabatas are specifically adapted for cyclocross training, where the power delivery requirements are very different to time trialling. Doing 4 sets of 6 or 7reps with 10 second recovery times is anything but easy however, as the recovery period is far too short and by the third rep the required mental effort is huge. Give me 2 x 20 FTP anytime.

I agree with your suggestions for best TT intervals, and would aslo caution the OP to make sure he is fully recovered after each interval session before doing another. If that means only doing one interval session a week to begin with then so be it.

 

[amaferanga]

Not sure if you're referring to my comment, but I was not suggesting that the OP follows my regime. Just want to make that clear. It was meant purely as an illustration.

The 20 second tabatas are specifically adapted for cyclocross training, where the power delivery requirements are very different to time trialling. Doing 4 sets of 6 or 7reps with 10 second recovery times is anything but easy however, as the recovery period is far too short and by the third rep the required mental effort is huge. Give me 2 x 20 FTP anytime.

I agree with your suggestions for best TT intervals, and would aslo caution the OP to make sure he is fully recovered after each interval session before doing another. If that means only doing one interval session a week to begin with then so be it.

I think it was Arsen and others I was referring to. I can certainly see that the intervals you do will be tough and ideal for cyclocross. I do some short intervals in my training (for road racing) consisting of 15s on / 15s off repeated 4 times and repeat this 3 or 4 times. It sure is a tough session if I do it all out (I do them by power though so I can dial in the effort pretty well), but doesn't require the concentration that a 2x20 requires. 'Only 15s more pain' always seems more manageable than 'only 15 more minutes of pain'!

 

[berty bassett]

right - just got back and i am now eating everything in sight . done 35 m - warmed up 5 then 5 hard 5 easy x3 every hill max effort 10 hard 10 easy . 220-age =174 ( yes i am old ) i hit 176 a couple of times and by the feel of it - this is hitting max levels for me unless i start carrying a defibulator average heart rate for trip was 153 so high 80s%- maths is not my forte. where i live there is a stonker of a hill a mile from home that i give max effort on all times - this time i bonked after just 35m when usually i can hit it hard after a 50 or 60 so that makes me think i have definitely worked harder though the av speed was only up less than half a mile . i have a garmin 705 that has hr on and power but the power was blank all the way round - just trying to see what i need to do to get power bit working - got a horrible feeling it is going to mean another online shopping bout . my legs are burning

 

[berty bassett]

KING HELL get the defibulator out again ! surely there is a cheaper way of getting a powermeter that 705 reads - just been looking and we are talking £500 + . - do you know what my missus would do to me . does anyone know of a cheap way of getting power reading --- please