Is my made-over better?

[12boy]

My Brompton came with a cartridge BB. The radially spoked wheel works fine and stays true, at least for me. The pressed fork ends also work ok. The weak spots that bother me is the difficulty of replacing the rear triangle hinge and the seat post insert needing reaming. There's lots of improvements I can think of but I like mine a lot as is, so the weaknesses are tolerable.

 

[alicat]

A for me. Tan walls are so 1970s.

 

[kj92]

I just wish they did tanned walls with a better grip. I'd be all over that!

 

[rogerzilla]

I've had three Bromptons and currently have an S3E-X (which started out as an S3L). The S3L cost me £550 in summer 2009 from Cyclecare Kensington. I don't know what prices were last summer but 2019 models are currently sold for £1045. I think most people would call that a doubling in ten years.

I'm no apologist for Brompton; components are cheap, many parts are poorly engineered, the paint and wheels can be absolutely terrible and they use aggressive and barely legal retail price maintenance to prevent discounting by volume sellers. There have been no significant improvements since the LWB frame was introduced in the mid-2000s. You're paying over £1000 for a hi-tensile steel frame with features that would shame some kids' bikes, as has been said above.

Despite all this, the smaller fold still makes them the best option for me and some other people. The other big advantage used to be parts availability but that's been shot to pieces recently; many parts are now dealer-fit only. That would stop me buying one now. I am quite capable of stripping and rebuilding a Brompton, and have done it to three of them. The factory assembly leaves a lot to be desired anyway. A friend has just bought a brand new one and is horrified by the state of the wheels* and the lack of grease anywhere. He wrote and complained.

*I pulled mine apart and rebuilt them in the first week

 

[berlinonaut]

You keep saying this but it seems your memory is not correct. Looking at the price lists a M3L did cost
£391,28 in 1997
£735 in 2010 (for a key model, £765 in B-spoke version with choice of colors, with the carrier block being another £15 on both ) and
£1060 today (according to Brompton's webpage, including free color choice and combination apart from premium colors and including the carrier block)

What I totally forgot: Today's equivalent to a key model 2010 M3L regarding spec would be a B75 with mudguards and a folding pedal retrofitted - very close to the 2010 spec regarding components. The B75 is £745, the L-upgrade £60 according to the configurator and the folding pedal £32,50 at SJS. So a total of ~£845. A rise of 110£ or 15% in in cash over ten years, not even counting inflation. Not too bad in my eyes.

 

[berlinonaut]

I've had three Bromptons and currently have an S3E-X (which started out as an S3L). The S3L cost me £550 in summer 2009 from Cyclecare Kensington.

Sounds like a steal (and way beyond list prices). But you should not forget that in 2009 we were in the middle of the big bank financial crisis and thus Brompton dealers did not sell many bikes and therefor were offering really cheap prices. So it was really an extraordinary situation. In early 2009 I bought a black 2008 S3L key model myself in London and ended up even slightly lower than you after a bit of negotiation (it was however a last year's model plus we bought more than one bike, so it was a small batch buy). Considering the excellent exchange rate back then (close to 1:1) it was a total bargain and miles below normal German prices. But 2009 has been the lowest price in decades, even regarding list prices.

As far as I know Brompton in the UK have had a small increase in price each year, small, steady and foreseable, but summing up. I have a graphic with list price development of selected Brompton models in Germany (which differs a bit from the uk) - not updated for 2020 yet:

You can see that you can be happy in the UK anyway - in Germany Brompons are recognizably more expensive and have always been. In the end it does not matter: Sales prices are based on what people are willing to pay - law of the market. Brompton sells more bikes each year and still they are continuously sold out with considerable waiting times for a new bike. So no matter what your feelings are and if you consider them to be overpriced - buyers seem to think the bike is worth the price demanded by Brompton.

 

[FrankCrank]

Just by way of clarification, does anyone know what type of BB is fitted on Brommies? I think it was Mr. Gunk's recent project that had the old cup & ball type, Mr. 12boy says his has a cartridge type. Maybe the US spec is different?

It's interesting that Brompton were trying to break into the Asian market. I don't think they were daft enough to think folk here, in the tropics, would cycle on one to work. You'd need a shower and a change of clothes, and then there's the psycho drivers, and 3rd world road surfaces. Can only assume they were to be fashion accessories, and not multi-modal transport as designed.
I have on a couple of occasions cycled a few miles in BKK, and if you stay on the pavements you stand some chance of getting from A to B........just try and avoid the motorcycles

 

[Kell]

Modern ones are definitely cartridge.

Couldn't tell you what off-hand, but I replaced mine with a Shimano cartridge.

 

[Kell]

Forget the legal issues for a minute, but I prefer B.

Maybe because it reminds me of my old 1994 Orange P7 that was Nickel Plated and ran tan walls.

This one is not mine:

 

[berlinonaut]

Just by way of clarification, does anyone know what type of BB is fitted on Brommies? I think it was Mr. Gunk's recent project that had the old cup & ball type, Mr. 12boy says his has a cartridge type. Maybe the US spec is different?

It has been a ISO cartridge until 2013 and since then (with the spider crank) became a JIS cartridge. Cup and ball type may have been in the earlier days but should have ended way before 2000, some time in the 90ies. There is no different spec for the US and has never been. Why should it?

It's interesting that Brompton were trying to break into the Asian market. I don't think they were daft enough to think folk here, in the tropics, would cycle on one to work. You'd need a shower and a change of clothes, and then there's the psycho drivers, and 3rd world road surfaces. Can only assume they were to be fashion accessories, and not multi-modal transport as designed.

Historically Brompton exports about 60-70% of it's production (numbers vary between the years and around 70% being steady for the last ~15 years) and outside of the UK Benelux, Germany and Japan have been the strongest markets since the early nineties. As Brompton was not able to keep up with demand they made the license contract with Neobike in the early nineties to serve the Asian market including and beyond Japan. Neobike promised to sell 100.000s of licensed Bromptons each year (which they did not) and - apart from being cheaper and of worse build quality - stole tooling and plans after the end of the contract in 2002. Which then led to the various Brompton clones that are offered in Asia including the bike that is shown in the start posting of this thread.
For the recent years Asia has been one of the strongest growing markets for Brompton, with South Korea being in the lead. There is definitively demand and the market works somewhat differently. The gazillion of special editions is a direct result of the Asian market. Whenever a new limited edition pops up it is sold out quickly in Asia and most of the times European dealers are approached by Asians if they could deliver special edition bikes to Asia.
So no matter what you think about Brompton judging wrongly about a market potential in Asia - they have been exporting there for almost 30 years and the market is huge, strong and growing and eats up a considerable and growing amount of Bromptons production. In comparison i.e. the US are a pretty neglectable market until now, even that it has been growing in the last years.

PS: I am really wondering why there is so much speculation, smarty-pants behaving and ludicrous claims and on what foundation, - Brompton's financial statements since founding of the company are publically available and it is all written in there, year after year. The facts are available and accessibly easily - no need for false claims and speculation. Claiming obviously totally wrong things just proves those to be obviously fools and not trustworthy that do those wrong claims.

 

[roley poley]

just been looking at the OP pictures again and I have to vote A because I'm not gonna slot my brakes to fit tan wall tyres

 

[berlinonaut]

I'm no apologist for Brompton; components are cheap, many parts are poorly engineered, the paint and wheels can be absolutely terrible and they use aggressive and barely legal retail price maintenance to prevent discounting by volume sellers. There have been no significant improvements since the LWB frame was introduced in the mid-2000s. You're paying over £1000 for a hi-tensile steel frame with features that would shame some kids' bikes, as has been said above.

If they are so terrible - why do you have one then? I'd recommend looking less at the cost than on the value you get. As you do still own a Brompton
(and bought three in total) they cannot be that crappy (or you'd be a fool). If they are so overpriced it should be totally easy to create, build and deliver a better bike for a way lower price - astonishingly such a bike does not exist. But as you say it would be easy: Do it - you will become a rich man...
Regarding cycle2work and the cost of the bike: What a consumer really pays is way less than the shop price with the help of cycle2work. And many sell their bikes at the end of the scheme for roughly what they really paid for it, so basically they got a free Brompton for three years (or whatever the period is) and get a fresh one after that if they like. Not too bad.
If you buy a Brompton out of your own pocket it will loose 50-100 Pounds in value each year over the first years and less lateron. That's aboutn 1 Pound per week. Again not terribly bad if you ask me...

But I totally agree that Bromptons are expensive (even Andrew Richie is unhappy about that) and that I would also love if some things were made more sorrowfully. But it works and it works way better than the competition and lasts longer as well. So the value you get is very decent.
And I think that taking a total bargain from a exeptional situation 11 years ago as the standard to judge on pricing today is not valid and will mainly make you an unhappy man.

Out of curiousity: If your judgement on Bromptons is that harsh - what on earth is your judgement on Moultons then: With them you can choose to get an expensive bike with the cheapest components and the worst paint job on the market (TSR) or a incredibly expensive bike with midrange components or a absolutely crazy expensive bike with good, but not state of the art components for a price you could get a bunch of cars for...

The other big advantage used to be parts availability but that's been shot to pieces recently; many parts are now dealer-fit only. That would stop me buying one now. I am quite capable of stripping and rebuilding a Brompton, and have done it to three of them.

It is worth noting that this policy as far as I know is only in place in the UK and nowhere else. The reason Brompton gave when inventing the policy a couple of years ago was that they want to get rid of trashed bikes that have been frankensteinized by completely idiotic and incompetent fools, are then sold in a dangerous and semidefective state and damage the image of the brand as well as potentially the health of the buyers. I cannot judge on the competence of the average UK hobby mechanic but when looking at used Bromptons from different countries those from the UK seemed to be almost always in considerable worse condition of maintenance to me. So I'd think there is at least some truth to Brompton's claim.

 

[rogerzilla]

I think they're trying to support their dealers by guaranteeing them a flow of work.

I actually do have a Moulton TSR. I traded one of the Bromptons for it. It was secondhand but only a year old. It is made from identifiable chromoly tubing (Reynolds 525) and there is a lot more brazing than on a Brompton. The paint on mine is good although generally I'm not keen on powdercoat. I don't know about component quality as the original purchaser bought it as a frameset only. It is apparently the last TSR ever sold that way; Moulton changed policy after that and will only sell complete bikes.

 

[FrankCrank]

It has been a ISO cartridge until 2013 and since then (with the spider crank) became a JIS cartridge. Cup and ball type may have been in the earlier days but should have ended way before 2000, some time in the 90ies. There is no different spec for the US and has never been. Why should it?


Historically Brompton exports about 60-70% of it's production (numbers vary between the years and around 70% being steady for the last ~15 years) and outside of the UK Benelux, Germany and Japan have been the strongest markets since the early nineties. As Brompton was not able to keep up with demand they made the license contract with Neobike in the early nineties to serve the Asian market including and beyond Japan. Neobike promised to sell 100.000s of licensed Bromptons each year (which they did not) and - apart from being cheaper and of worse build quality - stole tooling and plans after the end of the contract in 2002. Which then led to the various Brompton clones that are offered in Asia including the bike that is shown in the start posting of this thread.
For the recent years Asia has been one of the strongest growing markets for Brompton, with South Korea being in the lead. There is definitively demand and the market works somewhat differently. The gazillion of special editions is a direct result of the Asian market. Whenever a new limited edition pops up it is sold out quickly in Asia and most of the times European dealers are approached by Asians if they could deliver special edition bikes to Asia.
So no matter what you think about Brompton judging wrongly about a market potential in Asia - they have been exporting there for almost 30 years and the market is huge, strong and growing and eats up a considerable and growing amount of Bromptons production. In comparison i.e. the US are a pretty neglectable market until now, even that it has been growing in the last years.

PS: I am really wondering why there is so much speculation, smarty-pants behaving and ludicrous claims and on what foundation, - Brompton's financial statements since founding of the company are publically available and it is all written in there, year after year. The facts are available and accessibly easily - no need for false claims and speculation. Claiming obviously totally wrong things just proves those to be obviously fools and not trustworthy that do those wrong claims.

Thanks for the thorough reply. I own a Raleigh Twenty, and it has a different wheel size to those sold on the US, hence my query about possible different specs. The high end malls here are the only place I've seen Brommies for sale, and the one I go to regularly hasn't had them for the past year or so. I'm pretty sure Brommies and Thailand are not a good match, both on cost and their intended use in a tropical climate. For cooler Asian countries, such as Japan and S Korea, sure, they could be used for daily transport to and from work. I'd find it very hard to believe that sales in Thailand are growing.

As for speculation and smarty-pants stuff, the forum is called CycleChat, and everyone's entitled to play Devil's Advocate if they so wish

 

[berlinonaut]

The high end malls here are the only place I've seen Brommies for sale, and the one I go to regularly hasn't had them for the past year or so. I'm pretty sure Brommies and Thailand are not a good match, both on cost and their intended use in a tropical climate. For cooler Asian countries, such as Japan and S Korea, sure, they could be used for daily transport to and from work. I'd find it very hard to believe that sales in Thailand are growing.

I had read somewhere information about Bropton's growth strategy in Asia but cannot remember the exact source and it was a couple of years ago anyway. Thailand has for a long time not appeared on that map for various reasons and - as far as I can judge - is not really relevant until today. Japan was strong since the 90ies already, South Korea, Singapore and Indonesia came in some time around 2010ish. China has been a market they wanted to conquer in the recent years but, as far as I can judge, until now with little success (but those things take time). Brompton has a subsidiary in Hongkong that does the distribution part for Asia. With the financial numbers of that plus the percentage of sales going to Asia, both from the finacial statements, and addinonally some other info one gets a not too vague picture of what is going on.

As for speculation and smarty-pants stuff, the forum is called CycleChat, and everyone's entitled to play Devil's Advocate if they so wish

That's for sure and I do not expect everybody to go through 40+ years of financial statementes before posting - but personally I consider it a difference if someone says "I wonder if or why this and that" "I think or believe this and that" or "this and that ist fact" (w/o any foundation apart from personal belief that may even be founded on ignorance) "and this means everybody at Brompton is a bloody incompetent idiot." They claim that Asia is growing and this is untrue because I was/live there and cannot believe that there are many Bromptons sold and Brompton should know that. This kind of statements is as wrong as unnecessary and unhelpful and fosters the image of forums as a totally unreliable source of information. Some guy invented the phrase "alternative facts" for that. In other words: Speculate as much as you wish, but if you want to do me a favor make clear when you speculate and don't sell your speculations as facts.