Is this wrong?
- Thread starter magnatom
- Start date
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Terminator
New Member
Im not a RLJ.
tdr1nka
Taking the biscuit
- Location
- SE London, Bandit Country
It certainly appears very wrong.
What it does show tho is an example of where UK road management could IMO be vastly improved.
At an equivelant junction in the USA, the car in question would not have been in that position. To avoid the 'we drive on the left, they drive on the right' prob I shall explain from the driving on the left viewpoint and you can do the rest in a mirror later.
In primary position(and in the left lane)at a red light on a junction at which you want to turn left, as long as you give way and there is no traffic coming from your right, you may proceed and make your turn just as you would at any junction without traffic lights.
I've watched this piece of road planning for years in California and New York while wondering, duh? Why we don't do it here?
It frees up traffic, it eliminates surprise left hooks(unless of course you are desperate to take primary and undertaking furiously before the lights change)and if you take risks or liberties at these junctions you draw shame upon yourself from all road users and the Police.
Am I in some bizarre Utopian Apoplexy?
Keep 'em peeled.
T x
What it does show tho is an example of where UK road management could IMO be vastly improved.
At an equivelant junction in the USA, the car in question would not have been in that position. To avoid the 'we drive on the left, they drive on the right' prob I shall explain from the driving on the left viewpoint and you can do the rest in a mirror later.
In primary position(and in the left lane)at a red light on a junction at which you want to turn left, as long as you give way and there is no traffic coming from your right, you may proceed and make your turn just as you would at any junction without traffic lights.
I've watched this piece of road planning for years in California and New York while wondering, duh? Why we don't do it here?
It frees up traffic, it eliminates surprise left hooks(unless of course you are desperate to take primary and undertaking furiously before the lights change)and if you take risks or liberties at these junctions you draw shame upon yourself from all road users and the Police.
Am I in some bizarre Utopian Apoplexy?
Keep 'em peeled.
T x
Rhythm Thief
Veteran
Tricky one. At a guess, I'd say there was traffic across the lights during the last cycle and he'd found himself left there when his lights turned red. With some reservations (ie, maybe he should have waited until his lights actually changed, rather than going when he could see they would soon change), I'd say there wasn't a lot wrong with that.
Tetedelacourse
New Member
- Location
- Rosyth
Hairy Jock said:
Wrong because it's against the law and is discourteous, but not dangerous.
Tetedelacourse
New Member
- Location
- Rosyth
Would anyone describe that behaviour as dangerous?
Tetedelacourse said:
Actually Tete, this is a particularly dangerous junction (do you know this one on Crow road, I am coming from the road that comes from Gartnavel). There have been a couple of pedestrians knocked down here in the past and in one direction there is a red light camera.
I also know that when he chose to go, pedestrians often start crossing the road (on the road he is turning into). It would have been very possible for him to miss a pedestrian here as I am sure he was concentrating on on the traffic. I have to say I think this was a dangerous maneuver.
At this junction it is very unlikely that he would have been stuck there by traffic turning into the main road, although it is possible. However, looking at my original footage, early in the video I can just make him out as I look though a bush. It really looks to me then as if he is behind the line. My second glance appears to show him with his back wheels still behind the line. When I next look at him, he has crawled forward of the line. There was absolutely no need for him to do this!
I posted this, because this is the type of maneuver that some red light creeper cyclists suggest is ok for us to do. I just wondered what they thought about a car doing the same......
Tetedelacourse
New Member
- Location
- Rosyth
I had a go at placing the junction but gave up. I think I know where you are.
I think he definitely jumps the red. Totally agree about that.
Neither you nor I can say whether there was a need to do it or not. But for the sake of argument let's assume there was no need.
Dangerous? Hmm. Not convinced. A few other conditions need to be present in order for it to be dangerous; as you say, peds need to be crossing, other traffic needs to be present (this one we know is true), and he needs to be only partially concentrating. As it turned out he made the move this time and nothing untoward happened. So arguably not dangerous. I'm not trying to be Devil's Advocate. This for me this is the crux of the whole RLJ argument. Those who do it say they do so only when safe to do so. ie it's not dangerous. Those who don't, often just dismiss it as dangerous behaviour. Which IMO simply isn't the case a lot of the time.
I don't RLJ because I think it's discourteous.
Just wondered if folk thought this was actually dangerous or not. Don't know if I've explained it too well. Do you know what I'm getting at?
I think he definitely jumps the red. Totally agree about that.
Neither you nor I can say whether there was a need to do it or not. But for the sake of argument let's assume there was no need.
Dangerous? Hmm. Not convinced. A few other conditions need to be present in order for it to be dangerous; as you say, peds need to be crossing, other traffic needs to be present (this one we know is true), and he needs to be only partially concentrating. As it turned out he made the move this time and nothing untoward happened. So arguably not dangerous. I'm not trying to be Devil's Advocate. This for me this is the crux of the whole RLJ argument. Those who do it say they do so only when safe to do so. ie it's not dangerous. Those who don't, often just dismiss it as dangerous behaviour. Which IMO simply isn't the case a lot of the time.
I don't RLJ because I think it's discourteous.
Just wondered if folk thought this was actually dangerous or not. Don't know if I've explained it too well. Do you know what I'm getting at?
Tete,
You are right on this particular occasion there was no danger. However, I think that is different from saying something is dangerous. I think what he did was dangerous, because of the potential. Just around the corner from there (where he went) is a newsagent. I often see kids running out of there, looking at the light sequence and running across when they think it is safe. When the driver went was one of the times peds think it is safe to get across quickly. The traffic on the main road is coming to a stop and there is a gap before traffic going the way the car went is allowed to go. People often cross during this gap.
So yes on this occasion there was no danger, as no-one ran out of the newsagent. But this could happen and does happen, so the maneuver was dangerous.
Of course there is also the argument about everyone deciding for themselves what is and isn't safe. People are inherently bad at doing this and that's why we have are supposed to obey traffic lights. Once you start saying some RLJing is ok (and I know you are not saying that Tete) then where do you draw the line.
You are right on this particular occasion there was no danger. However, I think that is different from saying something is dangerous. I think what he did was dangerous, because of the potential. Just around the corner from there (where he went) is a newsagent. I often see kids running out of there, looking at the light sequence and running across when they think it is safe. When the driver went was one of the times peds think it is safe to get across quickly. The traffic on the main road is coming to a stop and there is a gap before traffic going the way the car went is allowed to go. People often cross during this gap.
So yes on this occasion there was no danger, as no-one ran out of the newsagent. But this could happen and does happen, so the maneuver was dangerous.
Of course there is also the argument about everyone deciding for themselves what is and isn't safe. People are inherently bad at doing this and that's why we have are supposed to obey traffic lights. Once you start saying some RLJing is ok (and I know you are not saying that Tete) then where do you draw the line.
Tetedelacourse
New Member
- Location
- Rosyth
Possibly semantics but I think it's more accurate to talk about risk. Going through a red increases the risk of harm. A kid crossing when it's not a green man is more risky than on a green. Going through a red in a car is more risky than on a bike. And so on.
In your video, he increased the risk of causing an accident because he behaved in a way which was not expected by most other users of the junction. But in the absence of other risk factors such as a kid crossing when they're not meant to, it wasn't dangerous.
I don't think you can claim something is dangerous if there is no danger!
Anyway, he shouldn't have done it. And you are right, some people cannot judge risk for themselves. That alone is enough reason to have a rule for everyone.
In your video, he increased the risk of causing an accident because he behaved in a way which was not expected by most other users of the junction. But in the absence of other risk factors such as a kid crossing when they're not meant to, it wasn't dangerous.
I don't think you can claim something is dangerous if there is no danger!
Anyway, he shouldn't have done it. And you are right, some people cannot judge risk for themselves. That alone is enough reason to have a rule for everyone.
cannondale boy
Über Member
- Location
- somewhere in fife
Any driver or cyclist going through a red light is illegal. So no matter how big or small you are, the person is in jeopardy when crossing a red light. Its not safe and is very irresponsible. Drivers like those shown should be taken off the roads. 
Jacomus-rides-Gen
New Member
- Location
- Guildford / London
This one is a 3/4 RLJ!!
Arch
Married to Night Train
- Location
- Salford, UK
Rhythm Thief said:
Not tricky at all. For a start, if he was 'caught' out, he could have avoided it in the first place by not moving forward until he could clear the junction. I think I can see pedestrian crossing studs - he shouldn't have let himself be stopped across those in stationary traffic. And even if he did end up 'trapped', the white line is far enough back that even when he's over it, he's not blocking the traffic the other way, so he should just sit and wait for the next phase. In a big long vehicle like a truck or bus, I'd excuse you for getting into that situation, but not in an ordinary car.
Actually, looking at it again a couple of times, if you look at the first time we see him, when Magnatom looks right, pulling out of that driveway, I think he's behind (or only just over) the line at that point, and crawling then. So it's blatant RLJ already, let alone when he goes before the lights change.
