J&L titanium frame

[ANT 666]

Looking to get a Ti. frame anyone bought any J&L products? Frames £580 on the bay.

 

[vickster]

@Onyer might be able to assist with Ti

What warranty do the eBay sellers offer? I'd save a bit more and buy from one of the well known Ti manufacturers rather than trying to skimp

 

[Onyer]

I have seen them on ebay and even exchanged a few emails with the guy but I never followed through. Seemed like a price too good to be true to me. I have purchased some frames directly from a well known manufacturer in China and not been able to match that price. One of the photos on ebay shows a bike built by Pedalware - http://www.pedalware.co.uk/Home.html - so you could send an email to him (Robert Wilson) and ask him about his experience of the frame. Let us know if you do go through with a purchase.

 

[fossala]

@Onyer might be able to assist with Ti

What warranty do the eBay sellers offer? I'd save a bit more and buy from one of the well known Ti manufacturers rather than trying to skimp

It isn't skimping or paying just a bit more, it would be twice the cost.

 

[vickster]

It isn't skimping or paying just a bit more, it would be twice the cost.

I like the peace of mind of knowing what I'm buying and from whom and am prepared to pay for that especially as you do hear of fragility and warranty claims on Ti frames

Especially with something where safety testing is key

 

[ANT 666]

Almost all the known makes are built in the far east,save for enigma(UK) burls(Russia).
Folks are buying lots of carbon frames from there. At least with Ti. you can see the welds!

 

[mythste]

Almost all the known makes are built in the far east,save for enigma(UK) burls(Russia).
Folks are buying lots of carbon frames from there. At least with Ti. you can see the welds!

There was also an interesting article about the shortfalls of the more dubious frames being made out there that are the sort of costs we're discussing here. Even though they're made in the same region etc that the tolerances and quality vary dramatically.

I wish I could find the bloody thing!

 

[vickster]

Almost all the known makes are built in the far east,save for enigma(UK) burls(Russia).
Folks are buying lots of carbon frames from there. At least with Ti. you can see the welds!

That's as may be, but there is no UK presence to take up any issues with, there is no guarantor here for the product, who do you contact in the unlikely event that the frame fails in some way. I think Van Nic for example give a lifetime warranty, depends if you want to pay for that peace of mind

Condor Gran Fondo is made in Italy, but I'm not suggesting you find another £2k for the frame, although to me it is by far the most beautiful Ti frame out there, it's exquisite!

I wouldn't buy a carbon frame from China either

@Onyer is experienced in sourcing Ti fm China, see what advice he can give in addition to that above

 

[vickster]

Almost all the known makes are built in the far east,save for enigma(UK) burls(Russia).
Folks are buying lots of carbon frames from there. At least with Ti. you can see the welds!

That's as may be, but there is no UK presence to take up any issues with, there is no guarantor here for the product, who do you contact in the unlikely event that the frame fails in some way. I think Van Nic for example give a lifetime warranty, depends if you want to pay for that peace of mind

I wouldn't buy a carbon frame from China either

@Onyer is experienced in sourcing Ti fm China, see what advice he can give in addition to that above

 

[Onyer]

Almost all the known makes are built in the far east,save for enigma(UK) burls(Russia).
Folks are buying lots of carbon frames from there. At least with Ti. you can see the welds!

Even Enigma have most of their Ti frames made in the far east (China or Taiwan), others are made in the USA. They have facilities for making frames from Steel, but not Ti. I think the only manufacturer of Ti in the UK is Barlow.
The guarantee on frames is important and the manufacturer I use gives a lifetime guarantee on their workmanship.
There are some brilliant suppliers in China. But there was a video of a Spesh copy frame, which turned out to be far from good - dangerous even.
J&L products may be brilliant and a very good price. Until someone on this forum buys one I guess we'll never know.

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

...Even Enigma have most of their Ti frames made in the far east (China or Taiwan), others are made in the USA. They have facilities for making frames from Steel, but not Ti. I think the only manufacturer of Ti in the UK is Barlow......

I work here at Enigma so can confirm that for you. Yes Enigma offer more than one option on our Titanium frames, an off the peg and custom range for each model; the off the peg models and sizes are made in the Far East, all of which can also be custom made here right here in the UK, both steel and Titanium.

We took great care in choosing our frame builder and we are apparently the only European company they manufacture for. They are of the highest standard, using top quality Titanium, no other company has our frames with their logos, they are unique to us; although a few do occasionally buy our Audax Disc and Caliper forks from us. In comparison to those we make here I can confirm that they are in made in exactly the same way, with the same care, attention to detail and passion; we give the same lifetime warranty to the original owner. We can infact offer three price points, off the peg Far East, custom Far East and custom UK.

Regarding our own UK frames, as for how much we actually 'do' here, well they are designed here, the tubes are then cut here, mitered here and then Tig welded here; so all of it! After the frame is built it needs 'finishing', all of which, logos included, should that be the Titanium finishes known as 'bead', 'brushed' or 'mirrored' are done here, alternatively many now decide to have the frames painted, we have our own state of the art paint facility so we do that here as well. It was indeed one of the reasons Jim sold what is now Iride to start Enigma, his passion and long term goal was to bring manufacture back to the UK. Over time Enigma has grown to the extent that we now have an apprenticeship programme, so in years to come the skills will be passed on to a new generation.

As we buy the Titanium off the peg sizes in production runs, plus being made in the Far East, means we can subsequently offer them cheaper than our UK Custom one off Titanium frames. All Enigma Steel frames, even our lowest price model are currently built and painted by us right in here in Sussex.

 

[Soltydog]

I work here at Enigma so can confirm that for you. Yes Enigma offer more than one option on our Titanium frames, an off the peg and custom range for each model; the off the peg models and sizes are made in the Far East, all of which can also be custom made here right here in the UK, both steel and Titanium.

Any chance of a discount for CC members
Good to see employees of bike manufacturers using the forum & giving facts about their products My next bike will be Ti & the only one i've seen that meets my current requirements is the Etape Disc, but it will be a while before the funds are in place

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

Any chance of a discount for CC members
Good to see employees of bike manufacturers using the forum & giving facts about their products My next bike will be Ti & the only one i've seen that meets my current requirements is the Etape Disc, but it will be a while before the funds are in place

Well if you are ever down in Sussex come and see me and I will give you a tour of Enigma HQ, including the workshop-factory. You can see just how modern Titanium and Steel frames are made and painted; even the latter has needed to evolve as modern paints are far 'greener' now than they once were, in reality the nasties that made up lead based paints did make things far easier than they are now; but progress is progress and you simply have to evolve with the times.

For sure the modern Titanium and very lightweight steel frames need to be made in the modern way, with modern equipment, but I can also show you the more traditional frame building methods with brass, lugs and fire! We still have an area of the factory that we still have permanently set up for the occasions that we still build in this method; you can see the contrast between old and new for yourself then.

 

[Accy cyclist]

Well if you are ever down in Sussex come and see me and I will give you a tour of Enigma HQ, including the workshop-factory. You can see just how modern Titanium and Steel frames are made and painted; even the latter has needed to evolve as modern paints are far 'greener' now than they once were, in reality the nasties that made up lead based paints did make things far easier than they are now; but progress is progress and you simply have to evolve with the times.

For sure the modern Titanium and very lightweight steel frames need to be made in the modern way, with modern equipment, but I can also show you the more traditional frame building methods with brass, lugs and fire! We still have an area of the factory that we still have permanently set up for the occasions that we still build in this method; you can see the contrast between old and new for yourself then.

Yes but can we have a discount?

 

[Paul_Smith SRCC]

Before I post in bike forums, especially when I am talking directly about the company I am working for, I run it by the moderators asking what criteria they would like me to adhere to and the boundaries they would like me to keep within; naturally I did the same before I started posting in Cycle Chat. I've been a club rider for forty years and in the cycle trade for nearly thirty and enjoy sharing what I've learned along the way. As such moderators like the fact that I post occasionally and when I do that I state exactly who I am, but I am careful to respect and play by their rules; rules which I have to say I completely agree with.

As you can appreciate there is a fine line that I need to take, trying to be informative and clarifying the odd point is one thing, posting directly for commercial reasons and talking about pricing is another of course.