Jockey wheels

[Dogtrousers]

My general assumption will be that for 65p you will get something very slightly the wrong size and made of cheese. And not particularly nice cheese at that. Every possible corner that can be cut will be cut. Quality control will be minimal, so you're taking a gamble. It might be awful rubbish or acceptable rubbish.

For £43 you will get something that is probably decent quality, manufactured to appropriate tolerances, looks distinctive, has a known brand name and may save you a watt here and there. Or may not. Angry people on the internet will be arguing about the benefit or lack of benefit.

In between you will find manufacturers' own. So Shimano if replacing the jockeys on a Shimano mech, or SRAM or Campag or whatever. They will cost somewhere in between 65p and £43. About a tenner maybe. Or less if you shop around. They'll probably be fine unless you get sold a counterfeit.

It's the same with all kinds of things. Cheap tat will be rubbish and probably won't save you anything in the long run. Premium brands ask a premium price but a lot of that is just paying for the name or other intangibles (like supporting a small British manufacturer)

You pays your money and you takes your choice. It's not confusing.

 

[silva]

Those hambini articles are always a nice reality check.

An often neglected part of tribology is how a bearing responds as it wears out. The graph below shows a comparison between two steel bearings (SKF and NTN) and a Ceramic bearing (Enduro). Initially the Enduro bearing has lower friction, at around 600km of use, the ceramic bearing has worn a track into the comparatively soft steel races and the bearing friction starts to increase dramatically. It is comfortably higher than steel bearings after a modest running in period. Hybrid ceramic bearings are the equivalent of trying to run a locomotive on an asphalt road – the hardness differential causes the road (raceway) to become damaged.

friction that increased dramatically implies same for wear rate.
... so a second explanation next to a temperature shock that (further) cracks... stone.

it's also a nice illustration of something is as good as its weakest part.
The ceased KMC Z1INOX chain had also such "weak" part.
The chain was advertised as stainless, but as reality check showed: the pins weren't, and upon asking KMC they confirmed it. It's probably a trade off choice, because stainless has about half as good mechanical properties, which may be more critical for the pen than for the other link parts.

I thought end of rusty chains, and it also looked like that, but park the bike in a humid environment and you find it back with brown spots on the pens ends.
Ignore it and a next ride your chain falls apart on the street, because a pin ends riveting lobs rusted to dust enough to allow the link plate to just fall off.
Which entirely voids the plus of stainless: no rust thus no consequences of rust.
Even worse: you then think it can't happen, and rely on it, but it does, surprise and you weren't prepared.

That's why I don't trust sellers that don't list technical details in their standard and thus clearly known fashion, instead of "overzincing", nothing sayers like "rust buster".
They probably don't like what hambini reveals - rather prefer generation after generation customers discovering it post sale.

Which is also mentioned by hambini:

Some suppliers of ceramic bearings buy in a generic hybrid assembly and laser etch their own brand name onto the side of the bearing. These bearings are purchased at very low sums ($5/£5/€5) from the far east and then sold on for 10 or even 20 times the price to consumers in the US and Europe. It’s easy to spot these manufacturers as they are usually sold by one supplier only and lack technical data.

Note the laser etching of their brand name, despite the bearing not their product.
To then sell it at 10-20 times their purchase price - that laser etching machine is more a profit machine.

 

[TC99]

To answer your question directly, there are a number of technical differences between the Hope wheels and the red ones. Firstly the Hope Wheels are CNC machined from aluminium, the red ones are probably cheap soft plastic. The Hope wheels have cartridge bearings in the middle and seals on the outside to help prevent water ingress. The red ones will just have a metal sleeve in the middle and the bolt will run through this, no bearings. The cartridge bearings will make the Jockey wheels run much smoother and require less maintenance. The large holes on the Hope wheels will also not only save weight, but also help prevent them clogging with mud so easily. The Hope wheels will also be designed to work with modern 1x drivetrains on mountain bikes with teeth profiled to fit the chain more closely.

The Hope wheels are definitely better than the red ones, but are they worth 43 pounds? That's up to you to decide really. What I like about Hope is that they are a small British company producing everything in Barnoldswick. Which does mean though that there will be a bit of a premium to pay over products from larger companies producing stuff in bulk in the far east.

I like this answer. It makes sense. The original Brompton jockey wheels are plastic with a bolt and a sleeve. I like sealed bearings etc much more. I have cleaned and reinstalled my original ones as they are in good condition but will consider more engineered replacements when needed. Thanks

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Just cleaned, greased and put my jockey wheels back this morning. Teeth still look good for this year. All running smoothly.

 

[Tom B]

I'm tight, parsimonious, bordering mean.

But with stuff like this I take, what is for me a sensible approach.

My bikes are fitted with largely Shimano components, usually lower mid range. Because it.

A) Works
B) Usually works well for even a keen amateur
C) Is sensibly priced
D) Is reasonably durable.

Much of Shimano stuff is trickled down anyway or at least benefits from trickle down of technology and production processes.

When it comes to stuff like bearing, freehubs, chains, cassettes, cables, even brake pads I generally go out and look at what Shimano have and specify as stock. Because, it isn't usually stupid expensive, you know it'll just work and perform well. What's more it'll be reasonably durable which is where the value comes over the cheap cheap stuff. I think the last pair of Shimano jockey wheels I bought were £8

For stuff like Jockey Wheels where a broken bit can leave you stranded or late for work is a saving of £3 per jockey wheels really worth it?

Even if they don't fail, but wear faster is it worth the faff of fitting them at least twice as often?

As for going the other way and paying stupid money.. Am I, Mr Keen Amateur, usually carrying a rucksack, really going to feel the difference, will the performance be noticeable? And if it is does it matter that I got to the top of Two Mile Brow 2 seconds faster?


I see the attraction of sealed bearings, but the bushing are working fine for me and it's usually the wheels that wear first

 

[Dogtrousers]

Another reason to go for manufacturers' own (be it Shimano, SRAM or whatever) is standardisation.

If you buy another supplier's part, either cheap tat or boutique brand, you increase your risk of buying the wrong thing. Especially if you are just an occasional buyer like me.

There may be standards that you are not aware of. For instance, take jockey wheels. Are they all a standard size? I have no idea. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know because I only buy them once in a blue moon.

If I go to the Shimano site and get the right part number for replacement jockey wheels for RD-R7000-GS (or whatever) then I'm moderately confident I'm getting the right thing. There are compatibility diagrams and so on to consult depending on what part you're looking for.

If I order something else then I might save some money, or I might save some watts (depending on how much I'm spending). But sods law says I'll probably just end up with something that doesn't fit. Or worse, superficially appears to fit but doesn't really work properly.

 

[fossyant]

Shimano stuff just works and you don't need the fancy jockey wheels. My CX bike and the commuter have the 105 level jockeys (on a 105 and XT rear mech) - they just work. Perfect gear changes etc. All you need to do is wipe them over and occasionally, just pull them apart, clean, then blob a bit of grease on the bushing. And they cost £10. If worn, just replace !

 

[robjh]

What do we mean by a jockey wheel failing?
In 40 years I've lost one on the road when a bolt came loose and the derailleur cage fell apart, but was that a problem with the jockey wheel, the cage or careless maintenance? I've replaced them when the teeth look like spikes, and lubricated them because of squeaking (with varying success) but these are ongoing issues that don't cause sudden failure on the road.
The only true jockey wheel failure I had was with a pricey all-metal model which spilled tiny bearings all over Victoria station at the start of a ride, but the derailleur still held it in place and I completed an 80-mile ride without serious issues.

I don't want to get involved in the price/quality intricacies - obviously more £ buys better quality but with diminishing returns above a certain point, but for most people jockey wheels are boring fix and forget components that require only non- urgent attention for wear and tear reasons.

 

[fossyant]

I've never let a jockey wheel get to a 'throwing star' situation as they are cheap.

As for failing, that's probably more likely with the ones that use cartridge bearings. But, lots of folk never check anyhting.

SRAM ones don't last long on their MTB mechs because of all the crud that get's thrown at them - that's a big issue, but it's part of the 'cost' of owning MTB's - things wear out fast. I've had a few lower jockey's seize on my MTB - usually after an epic weekend when I've forgotten to regrease them. You don't get that with the more simple bushed ones. I'm still running 35 year old Jockey wheels on my two vintage road bikes - they used to do a lot of miles, but the jockeys still work fine - Shimano again.

 

[CXRAndy]

Jockey wheels seem to start at around a quid. Ok fair enough. But they also go for serious cash. Forty quid upwards. I am struggling to understand the price difference and what it may mean. Whats wrong with the ones for a quid?

Are you going to get 40 times the life from the more expensive and 40 times the performance

 

[Tom B]

What do we mean by a jockey wheel failing?
In 40 years I've lost one on the road when a bolt came loose and the derailleur cage fell apart, but was that a problem with the jockey wheel, the cage or careless maintenance? I've replaced them when the teeth look like spikes, and lubricated them because of squeaking (with varying success) but these are ongoing issues that don't cause sudden failure on the road.
The only true jockey wheel failure I had was with a pricey all-metal model which spilled tiny bearings all over Victoria station at the start of a ride, but the derailleur still held it in place and I completed an 80-mile ride without serious issues.

The Spikey ones of course are worn rather than failed, but failed in so much that shifting got horrible.
The other one was either missed at a few micklings or developed quickly.

I don't want to get involved in the price/quality intricacies - obviously more £ buys better quality but with diminishing returns above a certain point, but for most people jockey wheels are boring fix and forget components that require only non- urgent attention for wear and tear reasons.

I think with a lot of folk they just love the idea of the bling, or the peacocking of being able to say they spent "£200" on a jockey-wheel.

Its a bit like fashion and folk who pay £100 for a tee-shirt of £160quid for a mass produced hoodie with a bit of screen printing. They find value where I don't and who am I to say theyre wrong, or shouldn't.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

What do we mean by a jockey wheel failing?
In 40 years I've lost one on the road when a bolt came loose and the derailleur cage fell apart, but was that a problem with the jockey wheel, the cage or careless maintenance? I've replaced them when the teeth look like spikes, and lubricated them because of squeaking (with varying success) but these are ongoing issues that don't cause sudden failure on the road.
The only true jockey wheel failure I had was with a pricey all-metal model which spilled tiny bearings all over Victoria station at the start of a ride, but the derailleur still held it in place and I completed an 80-mile ride without serious issues.

I don't want to get involved in the price/quality intricacies - obviously more £ buys better quality but with diminishing returns above a certain point, but for most people jockey wheels are boring fix and forget components that require only non- urgent attention for wear and tear reasons.

I've had one suddenly fail and seize when a bushing disintegrated. Original shimano 105. Made the bike unrideable.

 

[Webbo2]

I usually get a new bike when the jockey wheels are worn out.

 

[Shearwater Missile]

I usually get a new bike when the jockey wheels are worn out.

Same as ashtrays in cars, back in the day.

 

[Happy_Days]

https://www.hambini.com/ceramic-bearings-vs-steel-bearings-an-engineering-analysis/

Have you seen ZFC’s video that disputes Hambini’s claims?


View: https://youtu.be/AHg2s-EGuO4?si=BiPdP72zXxxOsURj