Landis 'fesses up?!

[Flying_Monkey]

I think, FM, that the list is balls. Much as I admire Louison Bobet he is so far from being in Lance's league that it's embarrassing.

Well, the unadjusted version is remarkably similar to other ratings that have been produced. Perhaps you'd like to look at the methodology and tell us what exactly is 'balls'. I am not saying it isn't but I'd be interested in your reasoning.

Bobet possesses some of the most impressive palmares of anyone - he's certainly the 3rd best ever French road cyclist... but take a look yourself, particularly at the years 1951-1956. I don't think Armstrong ever won so many races, and such a variety of different types of races for so many years and also took the TdF for many of them. Even so, his multiple wins in the TdF still put him above Bobet, even without any adjustment for Armstrong's missing years. So yes, Lance is rated a better cyclist but to suggest that it is 'embarrassing' to find Bobet in his company is rather silly.

I think, BTW, that a lot of people would argue that Kelly was a better all-round racing cyclist than Armstrong - who, let me repeat again, I believe to be (by some distance) the greatest rider currently active. What any individual cyclist would value in terms of wins and in which races is an entirely different and personal question.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

well Lance is second to none in dividing reasonable people...

very true. he is even capable of dividing the minds of individuals... like me.

Flying Monkey, mangaman, rich p, everybody.... I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused. If anything I've said did, that was not my intention.

I've had a certain amount of direct and recent experience of the court, albeit a small court, of public opinion, muck sticking, and what it feels like to be unjustly accused of cheating when you haven't in a sporting context. One thing I fail to understand is why cycling fans (or other competitors) who are convinced by the evidence that LA is a cheat, well frankly, why don't they take some sort of direct action? Write to the team sponsors, the broadcasters, or go and sit in the road when he is competing, turn their backs on him when he rides by, put a broom handle through his spokes, something, anything.... other than bandying about accusations in forums.

Anyway I think there are critical principals at stake in this issue regardless of my personal opinion on the matter of whether or not he is a doper, which I'm ambivalent about to be honest, and I will argue those principals robustly. (and perhaps not always fairly, or politely which does my cause no good...)

My last words on this thread are .... I'm sorry.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Flying Monkey, mangaman, rich p, everybody.... I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused. If anything I've said did, that was not my intention.

You've certainly not caused me any offence, just some very minor frustration! But it's unusual enough to see anyone take a step back on an Internet forum, so for that you certainly have my admiration. Until next time...

 

[trustysteed]

if LA did cheat with EPO in the 99 TDF, and those samples were positive, how has he managed the other 6 TDF wins without being caught as surely he would have (and has) been tested multiple times over those years.

not excusing that 99 win if he did cheat, but if he hasn't tested positive since and therefore assuming he's clean, he's done pretty well to win a record 6 TDF's?

 

[wafflycat]

if LA did cheat with EPO in the 99 TDF, and those samples were positive, how has he managed the other 6 TDF wins without being caught as surely he would have (and has) been tested multiple times over those years.

not excusing that 99 win if he did cheat, but if he hasn't tested positive since and therefore assuming he's clean, he's done pretty well to win a record 6 TDF's?

David Millar never failed a drugs test...

 

[dellzeqq]

Well, the unadjusted version is remarkably similar to other ratings that have been produced. Perhaps you'd like to look at the methodology and tell us what exactly is 'balls'. I am not saying it isn't but I'd be interested in your reasoning.

Bobet possesses some of the most impressive palmares of anyone - he's certainly the 3rd best ever French road cyclist... but take a look yourself, particularly at the years 1951-1956. I don't think Armstrong ever won so many races, and such a variety of different types of races for so many years and also took the TdF for many of them. Even so, his multiple wins in the TdF still put him above Bobet, even without any adjustment for Armstrong's missing years. So yes, Lance is rated a better cyclist but to suggest that it is 'embarrassing' to find Bobet in his company is rather silly.

I think, BTW, that a lot of people would argue that Kelly was a better all-round racing cyclist than Armstrong - who, let me repeat again, I believe to be (by some distance) the greatest rider currently active. What any individual cyclist would value in terms of wins and in which races is an entirely different and personal question.

Monkey, I've read the book (actually his brother's book) on Bobet. There is a photograph of him on my mantel. He never established the hegemony that Armstrong established, his reign was shorter and fractured, and, let's face it, he was a doper.

 

[mangaman]

very true. he is even capable of dividing the minds of individuals... like me.

Flying Monkey, mangaman, rich p, everybody.... I apologise unreservedly for any offence caused. If anything I've said did, that was not my intention.

I've had a certain amount of direct and recent experience of the court, albeit a small court, of public opinion, muck sticking, and what it feels like to be unjustly accused of cheating when you haven't in a sporting context. One thing I fail to understand is why cycling fans (or other competitors) who are convinced by the evidence that LA is a cheat, well frankly, why don't they take some sort of direct action? Write to the team sponsors, the broadcasters, or go and sit in the road when he is competing, turn their backs on him when he rides by, put a broom handle through his spokes, something, anything.... other than bandying about accusations in forums.

Anyway I think there are critical principals at stake in this issue regardless of my personal opinion on the matter of whether or not he is a doper, which I'm ambivalent about to be honest, and I will argue those principals robustly. (and perhaps not always fairly, or politely which does my cause no good...)

My last words on this thread are .... I'm sorry.

Sorry if I've appeared confrontational in this thread Greg. I hope you're sorted now regarding the crap you've been through.

I agree nothing is proven against Armstrong.

I suppose what I've been hoping for a while, is for someone (maybe Landis) to drop a virtual nuclear bomb that has the potential to expose the murky corners of all sports. And I'm hoping he's actually managed it. I notice the countries implicated - not just the US, but Belgium (Bruyneel), Canada (Barry) etc have all been mobilised to look into this. The FBI being involved will also be a seriously good thing I think in terms of reaching the truth.

It has to be a win-win situation as it will clear up all the rumours definitively, or prove them.

I'm sorry if you feel I was having a go at you personally - us West Sussex crew should stick together

 

[mangaman]

David Millar never failed a drugs test...

That's the problem though Waffly as you know as a pro-cycling fan.

The abusers of drugs are generally ahead of the testers.

The main drug busts have involved "stop and searches" The Festina affair - none of them tested positive, or phone taps (which caught Millar) etc

The only way to beat doping is to make it illegal and let the police get involved. That is why the French teams are generally considered clean.

Unfortunately the UK has no such law and this is a tad worrying when we suddenly come from a culture where sports cycling is as popular as Crown Green bowls, to the best country in the world on the track and having the best road sprinter (Cav) and Wiggo's transformation into a mountain goat, in a few years. Other countries are looking at us suspiciously.

I don't know, but I would be happier if sporting fraud was illegal in this country. (It'll never happen because of the possibility of the top footballers'/rugby players' not being entirely clean )

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Sorry if I've appeared confrontational in this thread Greg. I hope you're sorted now regarding the crap you've been through.

Yep, a (very) long time ago as a rugby player and very recently as a (community level rugby) referee. The worst thing a player or club official can call you is a cheat. Incompetant, stupid, inconsistent inept, too old, too slow, too fat, sure all of those and more, but please, never the C word. As a match official you are obliged to report it, and then your every word and deed is poured over by your peers and betters for months and your integrity is in doubt.

and be assured, no hard feelings towards anyone from me even if they are from East Sussex or beyond!

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Monkey, I've read the book (actually his brother's book) on Bobet. There is a photograph of him on my mantel. He never established the hegemony that Armstrong established, his reign was shorter and fractured, and, let's face it, he was a doper.

Armstrong never established a 'hegemony' except over the TdF, although he did certainly contribute to the creation of the myth that the Tour was the only thing that mattered in cycling...

Bobet was an artist, part of a generation of artists in cycling, along with Coppi, Bartoli, Anquetil et al. Armstrong is a brute. But yes, they both prepared themselves extremely well!

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Wiggo's transformation into a mountain goat

That one isn't looking so great right now though!

 

[rich p]

That one isn't looking so great right now though!

Goat keeps powder dry theory hope

 

[mangaman]

Goat keeps powder dry theory hope

That's my theory - why not?

Armstrong had no intention of winning the Giro last year - all preparation for the tour. Loads of riders do it.

 

[Crackle]

Yeah, but he had no hope of winning the Tour either

 

[mangaman]

Yeah, but he had no hope of winning the Tour either

True - but I think he has a podium chance.

Who else is there to compete with - Armstrong (if invited) who is surely past his best
Basso who has concentrated on the Giro
Sastre who hasn't been much better than Wiggins
Contador - clearly the favourite

Anyone else? I think Bradley could aim for the podium and if Contador falls off / gets ill who knows?