Learning a noisy musical instruments

[icowden]

Yes, the piano. It can he used in classical, jazz, pop. Presumably if you know the piano you can play other keyboard instruments. It is not always the most portable instrument, but there are portable variants around. I notice most pianos around now are digital, so tuning should not be a problem.

Yes to all of those. People always need a pianist. When learning a real piano is really the best. If not, second best is to make sure the keys are weighted - preferably hammer action. That said *any* instrument is good. Why not see if you can find a music shop and let your son have an explore of the different instruments. See if anything takes his fancy. Other clues will come from him. Does he like to sing and listen to music? The more exposure children have to music the more likely they are to learn. In private prep schools the vast majority of kids learn an instrument. It drops off in secondary, but nothing beats being exposed to music.

I have an 18 year old drummer / singer / violinist and a 16 year old singer / violinist / sort of pianist. They chose the instruments they were interested in. My oldest decided on drums when she did a drumming workshop at school.

I have no big beef against the cello myself, but it is limited to classical.

Well...


and the intro to this is on cello:


And then Viva la Vida (Coldplay) is mostly a string arrangement...

I still think the trombone has a lot going for it. If you are the pianist in an orchestra you probably have to be the best musician there, but a trombonist is usually part of a brass section.

Yep. There is only room for (at most) one pianist / harpsichordist usually. But you'll need several of everything else.

I would like my son to learn an instrument to a high standard, but I don't want to force him to do something he hates. If he does not want to do music than maybe I can encourage him to draw or paint. In depth knowledge of an instrument would be the arts section of his education ticked off.

As I said, let him try different things and ask him what he likes. It needs to come from him, but the more you can expose him to music, art, making stuff, the more likely he is to find something he really likes. Music is really key though - it enhances so much other learning. You will seldom find someone at the top of a skilled profession who doesn't also play an instrument well. It's very common for senior hospital Consultant Doctors and Surgeons for example.

 

[presta]

The lad next door opted to learn the drums, at which point we we happy/lucky to discover the soundproofing was pretty good.

My local library had a drum kit for people to have a go on once when I was in there, hence my comment above.

 

[Profpointy]

Yes, the piano. It can he used in classical, jazz, pop. Presumably if you know the piano you can play other keyboard instruments. It is not always the most portable instrument, but there are portable variants around. I notice most pianos around now are digital, so tuning should not be a problem.
My mother's favourite instrument is the cello, but she is like Hyacinth Bucket. I have no big beef against the cello myself, but it is limited to classical.
I still think the trombone has a lot going for it. If you are the pianist in an orchestra you probably have to be the best musician there, but a trombonist is usually part of a brass section.
I would like my son to learn an instrument to a high standard, but I don't want to force him to do something he hates. If he does not want to do music than maybe I can encourage him to draw or paint. In depth knowledge of an instrument would be the arts section of his education ticked off.

Trombone has the merit of getting a seat in a classical orchestra, brass band, jazz and even ska. Conversely, you never really get to play the tune.

Only had a brief blow on a trombone, so never learnt the slide positions.

For brass, trumpet has the most opportunity since it fits into nearly any genre and is a melody instrument so you get interesting parts to play albeit you need to swap to cornet in a brass band, but it's the same pitch and fingering so no big deal (apart from needing to buy 2nd instrument)

 

[Yellow Fang]

Why is guitar not serious, I think it's one of the hardest instruments to master, & is used in a hell of a lot of musical genres. not just chugging power chords in a metal band

There is the classical guitar, I suppose. There are not usually many in an orchestra or brass band. Unless amplified it is rather an accompanying instrument.

Edit: I do not want to be dismissive of the instrument. There is a lot to be said for it.

 

[MontyVeda]

Why is guitar not serious, I think it's one of the hardest instruments to master, & is used in a hell of a lot of musical genres. not just chugging power chords in a metal band

As I understand it, Rodrigo initially struggled to find an orchestra for his Concierto de Aranjuez because those 'proper' musicians didn't take the idea of a guitar concerto seriously.

 

[Yellow Fang]

It seems to me there are different ways of categorising instruments. Back in school we were taught there are brass, woodwind, percussion and string instruments, but I suppose those are just orchestral instruments.
One way of categorising instruments could be orchestral instruments, electrical, folk instruments. There would be some overlap. Bagpipes would be a folk instrument. I am not sure all they instruments are played to the same scale as orchestral instruments. Could your Scottish Highlander read music?
Then there are lead instruments, singing accompanying instruments, support instruments. If you play the tuba in the brass band then you are a cog in that band. If you play the penny whistle then you would probably only play a little bit while the singer isn't singing.
Maybe there are toy instruments too. For the first time in my life I am actually making progress in playing an instrument, but only the ukulele, which is easy to play. There maybe other instruments in this class, for example the stylophone, or the penny whistle.

 

[Yellow Fang]

If grade 8 is approximately A level standard then what is grade 5?

 

[icowden]

If grade 8 is approximately A level standard then what is grade 5?

It doesn't really work like that.

Grades are progress based. Depending on the instrument they can be easier or harder. That said...
It's very rare to be failed on Grades 1-3 - the boards want your money and want children to keep learning so they take more exams.
For some instruments it just isn't worth bothering with Grades 1 and 2 if you already know what the exam is like. For example, by the time you can play a bearable tune on a Trumpet you are grade 3. Grade 4 and 5 are a little tougher - they are starting to prepare you for the hard stuff.

At grade 6, things get serious. This is the minimum grade that counts for UCAS points. For Grades 6, 7 and 8 the number of points is based on not only the Grade but also how well you pass. If you scrape Grade 6 - 8 points. If you get a distinction (>130 out of 150) 12 points. The maximum is 30 points for a Grade 8 distinction. So the *best* you can do is equivalent to a C at A-Level. Depending on the course however, a University will happily accept someone that didn't quite get the grade they needed for a subject if they have other interests that show that they have dedication. Some University courses just give a plain UCAS points offer and it doesn't matter how you get there.

Many people skip grade 7 as it isn't a huge leap between grade 6 and grade 8.

Music Grades, Lamda Exams, AS Levels and EPQs all carry UCAS points. You can learn BSL and get 16 points.

All Grade exams are optional. In my case I did grade 2,3,4,5,6 and 8 on the piano, grade 3, 4 5 on the trumpet, grade 3 on Cello, grade 6 and 8 for singing.
I only did the two grades for singing because I'd done loads of piano grades, was an excellent sight reader and was old enough that I could master the repertoire required.

 

[Drago]

Grade 5 is what I managed before persuading Mater that I wasn't interest in piano. I've no idea how or even if that correlates with other qualifications,

 

[Profpointy]

Back in my day, many instruments didn't even have grade 1 and 2, maybe only offered for piano and fiddle which small children might learn. Horn started with grade 3 for example and if I remember rightly there wasn't a grade 7. Apart from scales and sight reading, the test pieces for horn grade 8 were things like a movement from a Mozart Horn concerto or Strauss #1, which aren't that hard to play to he fair and even I could make a a fair go at them. (Strauss #2 is very hard though). Not to say I was anything like grade 8 standard though and I only did grade 4 as I didn't enjoy doing the grades. I hated the "singing test" and was quite poor at sight reading.

 

[briantrumpet]

Back in my day, many instruments didn't even have grade 1 and 2, maybe only offered for piano and fiddle which small children might learn. Horn started with grade 3 for example and if I remember rightly there wasn't a grade 7. Apart from scales and sight reading, the test pieces for horn grade 8 were things like a movement from a Mozart Horn concerto or Strauss #1, which aren't that hard to play to he fair and even I could make a a fair go at them. (Strauss #2 is very hard though). Not to say I was anything like grade 8 standard though and I only did grade 4 as I didn't enjoy doing the grades. I hated the "singing test" and was quite poor at sight reading.

Correct re grades - in the 1970s is was just 3,4,5,6 & 8. The singing tests (sight singing from notation, and singing bits back from memory) have scarred people psychologically for life, and stem from ABRSM's attitude that singing is good for you (usually correct) and that a good way to get people to sing is to force them to do it in exams (completely and stupidly incorrect), and obviously gives trained singers a massive advantage.

I switched over to using Guildhall and the Trinity, as not only is the repertoire much more sympathetically chosen, but the exams aren't predicated on training people to go to music conservatoire using 19th-century forms of testing classical musical ability.

Re sight reading - skills vary enormously, but I still help all my pupils get as good as they can in it, as when they overcome the challenges, it makes turning up for rehearsals where notation is involved far less scary. ("Do the best you can, keep at it, and you'll get better bit by bit. No-one will get hurt if you get it all wrong... it's only music!")

 

[icowden]

Re sight reading - skills vary enormously, but I still help all my pupils get as good as they can in it, as when they overcome the challenges, it makes turning up for rehearsals where notation is involved far less scary. ("Do the best you can, keep at it, and you'll get better bit by bit. No-one will get hurt if you get it all wrong... it's only music!")

One of my bugbears with sight reading is that it's often still based on Victorian teaching. I well remember that at Grade 8 you had to sight sing a fairly difficult piece of music with no accompaniment. I have never in 51 years had to sight read something hard without any musical accompaniment (and I am an excellent sight reader who can also play by ear, although fingers are easier). It used to be a necessary skill because you learned from written music. You might not have heard the piece or have only heard it once at a concert. These days you can play it on Spotify or AMazon Music over and over. There is no need to sight read without having heard the piece or without accompaniament.

At school I was in Chamber Choir. Our Director of Music had us sightreading Bax (can't remember which piece). But we *needed* the piano accompaniment. You have to have a frame of reference even when doing atonal/serial music. Stuff like this:

 

[Drago]

Despite dyslexia I can sight read, but I have to think about what I'm doing and dont enjoy it. Fortunately I'm good enough on all the instruments I play to pick it out by ear after a few listens, and save the sheet music for gnarly parts I cant figure out.

I should practice it more really, but at 57 I can play 6 or 7 instruments than most people can so I'm doing well enough for my needs.

I cant read tab for toffee. It just swims before my eyes.

 

[Yellow Fang]

One of my bugbears with sight reading is that it's often still based on Victorian teaching. I well remember that at Grade 8 you had to sight sing a fairly difficult piece of music with no accompaniment. I have never in 51 years had to sight read something hard without any musical accompaniment (and I am an excellent sight reader who can also play by ear, although fingers are easier). It used to be a necessary skill because you learned from written music. You might not have heard the piece or have only heard it once at a concert. These days you can play it on Spotify or AMazon Music over and over. There is no need to sight read without having heard the piece or without accompaniament.

Not that it is relevant I suppose, but there used to be vendors of broadsides in Victorian times. You could not buy vinyl back then. The broadsides had the lyrics, but I am not sure if they had the music. I think the vendors just told you how it went.

 

[briantrumpet]

One of my bugbears with sight reading is that it's often still based on Victorian teaching. I well remember that at Grade 8 you had to sight sing a fairly difficult piece of music with no accompaniment. I have never in 51 years had to sight read something hard without any musical accompaniment (and I am an excellent sight reader who can also play by ear, although fingers are easier). It used to be a necessary skill because you learned from written music. You might not have heard the piece or have only heard it once at a concert. These days you can play it on Spotify or AMazon Music over and over. There is no need to sight read without having heard the piece or without accompaniament.

At school I was in Chamber Choir. Our Director of Music had us sightreading Bax (can't remember which piece). But we *needed* the piano accompaniment. You have to have a frame of reference even when doing atonal/serial music. Stuff like this:

If I designed my own grades, the music would be a bit easier, but you'd have to play it with a backing track, so candidates would know that there's no option of going back: that's the pay-off for making the music easier, but the advantage is that you get the harmonic & rhythmic context.

I was doing a sight -reading test for a pupil just an hour ago, and ridiculously it was in A Dorian, so if she'd done the sensible thing of saying it's in G major or E minor, it would have been very disorientating. Sometimes the exam boards just don't look at these things from the pupil's perspective.

And yes, I'd agree with everything you say about unaccompanied sight singing. It's nuts. Also nuts is expecting a girl to sing back from memory the lowest (bass) part of a three part phrase played twice, or expecting boys with broken voices to sing back a melody that might be an octave or two above their new voice. That's not to say they aren't useful skills in certain circumstances for certain people, but putting them in a practical exam for a tuba player who is a bit shy (yeah, I know, seems unlikely) and not good at singing is plain stupid.