Legal ebike seized and crushed!!!

[ebikeerwidnes]

Found this
https://www.cyclingelectric.com/news/police-crush-road-legal-e-bike

Now several things occur to me
Firstly - surely if the accused opted for a trial - then they would have to keep the "device" as evidence
otherwise they could just turn up and say " prove it"

Secondly - are some Police really "testing" a possible electric motorbike by simple turning the pedals and not realising that the motor is not running?

Seems all a bit inaccurate in some ways

 

[Drago]

Any constable can "inspect" a bicycle, but only a qualified vehicle examiner can give evidence as to its technical status in court. Id have had that thrown out in right quick time if I were the defendant.

"So tell me, constable, are you a qualified vehicle examiner appointed by the chief constable in accordance sections 67 and 68 of the road traffic act? Oh, you're not! In that case I put it to you, your worship, that the officer is not qualified, technically or legally, to make a determination as to this vehicles abilities or otherwise..."

If a constable has not done the course and been properly accredited, and that ticket isnt "in date", their evidence on technical matters, everything from CCTV, through to drugs, firearms and along to vehicles, is going to get binned in court by even the copies defence brief. Theyre either qualified subject matter experts, or they are not - there is no in between where a bobby's mere opinion is valid technical evidence. Seeing as most forces have between only 1 and 3 qualified VE's, and many aren't even officers (a lot are civvys or retired bobbies who've come back as civvies) the odds of actually encountering a constable who is a qualified VE is more or less nil.

West Mids haven always been a bunch of jokers that sail close to the wind, and they recently lost a chief constable because unqualified personnel were inventing "facts"...

 

[Punkawallah]

One in twenty UK crimes result in a charge. The police have to get their results up somehow.

 

[presta]

Did you follow the link in that article? It seems that police have been wrongly seizing mobility aids from the disabled as well, leaving some hospitalised because of attempts to cope without them.

 

[mjr]

Sorry I commented on this in the existing seizures thread at https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/increase-in-seizures-of-illegal-ebikes.299468/post-7656875

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Any constable can "inspect" a bicycle, but only a qualified vehicle examiner can give evidence as to its technical status in court. Id have had that thrown out in right quick time if I were the defendant.

"So tell me, constable, are you a qualified vehicle examiner appointed by the chief constable in accordance sections 67 and 68 of the road traffic act? Oh, you're not! In that case I put it to you, your worship, that the officer is not qualified, technically or legally, to make a determination as to this vehicles abilities or otherwise..."

If a constable has not done the course and been properly accredited, and that ticket isnt "in date", their evidence on technical matters, everything from CCTV, through to drugs, firearms and along to vehicles, is going to get binned in court by even the copies defence brief. Theyre either qualified subject matter experts, or they are not - there is no in between where a bobby's mere opinion is valid technical evidence. Seeing as most forces have between only 1 and 3 qualified VE's, and many aren't even officers (a lot are civvys or retired bobbies who've come back as civvies) the odds of actually encountering a constable who is a qualified VE is more or less nil.

West Mids haven always been a bunch of jokers that sail close to the wind, and they recently lost a chief constable because unqualified personnel were inventing "facts"...

I always fell that that attitude is a short term way of upping the stats

but generates a "cops are all crocked bar stewards" attitude in people - or increases it people who already have it

which in the longer term just cause problems for them and increases crime

same in many professions - used to drive me mad when I saw teachers treating kids like dirt (I cleaned that up) just because

Just stored up problems for everyone instead of solving them

 

[Dadam]

Outrageous. As if it wasn't bad enough that they're effectively turning a blind eye to rampant "taking the piss" level of illegal usage, with the odd performative "clampdown" and seizures, now due to pure ignorance and lack of training they're targeting innocent people going to work or whatever on legal bikes.

 

[SteveH80]

On the face of it it does sound a bit of a farce, but mistakes happen and it's what you do about it that counts.
It's not just a matter of police training, the whole legal framework of ebikes needs re-assessing because the technology is now far beyond what the current legislation was written around.

 

[Fastpedaller]

Any constable can "inspect" a bicycle, but only a qualified vehicle examiner can give evidence as to its technical status in court. Id have had that thrown out in right quick time if I were the defendant.

49 years ago (crikey time flies), a car drove into the rear of my bike and then left the scene. At the Police station my bike was examined...... the brakes were checked (why, when you consider the incident?) and then he spun the rear wheel and said, that's not a good wheel, it's bent. I then had to say "It wasn't before the car drove into it" . Sort of destroys any reliance on the Police when that sort of thing happens. Although, of course it's incorrect to generalise. The officer who went to court re the incident was first class - the defendant said he had been on the road it happened, but hadn't seen any cyclists. The offficer then asked " Is it a narrow road?" the defenant's response was "yes, at that point". The Officer then said "but we haven't discussed where on that 4 mile long road the incident occurred!" Done up like a kipper!

 

[Drago]

There is a joy to be had from making defendents or their legal reps look like idiots.

I loved it when I was accused of lying, a fairly standard last resort for a desperate defence brief, particularly greenhorns trying to make a name for themselves.

I'd turn to the Judge or Magistrate, and say "I've just been accused, without any evidence, of perjury. This is a very serious accusation and I would like your permission to step down in order to obtain some legal advice."

That would usually earn the hapless brief a fearsome bo*****ing, one a jury or bench would not forget in a hurry. Its not like TV, smart arse solicitors or barristers throwing their weight around usually get pulled up short.

 

[mjr]

On the face of it it does sound a bit of a farce, but mistakes happen and it's what you do about it that counts.
It's not just a matter of police training, the whole legal framework of ebikes needs re-assessing because the technology is now far beyond what the current legislation was written around.

Agreed with the first bit, but what they do about mistakes seems to be to get stuff in the crusher before questions can be asked, and refuse to give wheelchair users their e-bike attachments back.

How has the tech moved on in any way that could possibly excuse the reported police behaviour?

 

[DRM]

Found this
https://www.cyclingelectric.com/news/police-crush-road-legal-e-bike

Now several things occur to me
Firstly - surely if the accused opted for a trial - then they would have to keep the "device" as evidence
otherwise they could just turn up and say " prove it"

Secondly - are some Police really "testing" a possible electric motorbike by simple turning the pedals and not realising that the motor is not running?

Seems all a bit inaccurate in some ways

Perhaps a replacement bike, straight out of that P.C's salary, might give him/her 5,500 reasons to think about making rash decisions about things they know nothing about

 

[classic33]

With regards the banning of legal e-assist cycles from buildings. They are not immune from batteries overheating. A nearby tower block had one thrown from the fifth floor when the batteries overheated during charging. The quickest, and safest, way of clearing it from the property. The ground it fell on has only one entrance.

 

[wafter]

On the face of it it does sound a bit of a farce, but mistakes happen and it's what you do about it that counts.
It's not just a matter of police training, the whole legal framework of ebikes needs re-assessing because the technology is now far beyond what the current legislation was written around.

Fine to a point, however given how attached some of us get to our rides, on top of a brand new replacement the only thing that would make it right in my mind is if this was accompanied by the perpetrator's head on a stick.

I agree about the training although one has to be realistic - this is indicative of situations arising around many relatively niche interest groups - bottom line is that there's just too much for the average copper to learn an understand - especially as you infer the field is one of rapidly developing / changing tech.

It seems the most reasonable and realistic course of action would as @Drago suggests - bobby suspects so confiscates the item, which is then later assessed by a qualified individual and dealt with accordingly. In this case the Polis clearly dropped the ball as the model in question is a common, popular, widely-available model so unless it could be proven to be modified should have gone straight back to the owner..

One can only guess that in this instance this happened because of an admin oversight, or because whoever was doing the assessment was terrible at their job.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Part of the problem is the stats

Same with a lot of things
but it is far far easier to get someone ona normal legal bike to stop
than your average nutter with a mask on a clearly powerful electric motorbike that knows damn well it is totally illegal in every way

the nutter will almost certainly just shoot off
so you end up with a chase and that needs multiple officers and assessments as if he (probably not she much) crashes and someone gets injured then the Police have to prove it was justified and all that

but if you try to stop a normal law abiding person on a bike that just happily moving along a road and may/maynot be an EPAC
then they will likely just stop when requested


so if you want the stats to improve you get more "joy" from stopping 20 law abiding citizens
than trying to stop 5 nutters

morally dodgy
but the stats are improved