Lights - morally vs legally

[benb]

Hi all

On part of my commute is a traffic light controlled junction with 2 lanes. The right one is for right only, and the left one is for straight on only. As part of their phasing the straight on one is red while the right only one is green. There is no other road covered by the lights that would cause traffic to conflict with straight on traffic at this point - it is only phased like this to stop traffic blocking the second set of lights ahead.

So my question is, given that I could go straight on via the right turn green phase without inconveniencing or endangering anyone, and that this phasing is only set up like this due to the weight of motorised traffic, can anyone think of a moral reason why I should not go through at this point? I'm not talking about legality: obviously if I got spotted by a police officer and they decided to fine me I wouldn't have a leg to stand on and wouldn't argue it.

My thinking is that phasing like this is only set up to control space-hungry motorised vehicles. In any case I think I am going to write to the council to ask them to add a cyclist's exception to the lights, but I'm not holding my breath.

Here's the junction: http://goo.gl/maps/9VNSC

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

We don't usually talk about morality when it comes to lights. Show me a traffic light installed to protect other road users from the danger posed by cyclists, and then I'd feel a direct moral responsibility to obey it. Nobody has ever shown me one, though. There's an indirect moral responsibility as far as maintaining general law-abiding road behaviour goes and it would be inconsistent to expect other road users to respect the rules of the road whilst ignoring personally ignoring them.

It's also worth thinking about how bikes, which are entitled to use the roads, are subjected to controls imposed to regulate the reckless behaviour of users who are only there by licence. In itself, it's a funny position to have arrived at.

 

[benb]

We don't usually talk about morality when it comes to lights. Show me a traffic light installed to protect other road users from the danger posed by cyclists, and then I'd feel a direct moral responsibility to obey it. Nobody has ever shown me one, though. There's an indirect moral responsibility as far as maintaining general law-abiding road behaviour goes and it would be inconsistent to expect other road users to respect the rules of the road whilst ignoring personally ignoring them.

It's also worth thinking about how bikes, which are entitled to use the roads, are subjected to controls imposed to regulate the reckless behaviour of users who are only there by licence. In itself, it's a funny position to have arrived at.

I strongly believe that there is a case to be made to make red lights the equivalent of give way junctions for bicycles.

In this case the lights are not phased like that for safety, but to help stop the junction from clogging up.

I haven't yet gone through it on the right turn phase, but every time I'm stopped there when it happens I feel very tempted.

 

[Davidsw8]

Hi all

On part of my commute is a traffic light controlled junction with 2 lanes. The right one is for right only, and the left one is for straight on only. As part of their phasing the straight on one is red while the right only one is green. There is no other road covered by the lights that would cause traffic to conflict with straight on traffic at this point - it is only phased like this to stop traffic blocking the second set of lights ahead.

So my question is, given that I could go straight on via the right turn green phase without inconveniencing or endangering anyone, and that this phasing is only set up like this due to the weight of motorised traffic, can anyone think of a moral reason why I should not go through at this point? I'm not talking about legality: obviously if I got spotted by a police officer and they decided to fine me I wouldn't have a leg to stand on and wouldn't argue it.

My thinking is that phasing like this is only set up to control space-hungry motorised vehicles. In any case I think I am going to write to the council to ask them to add a cyclist's exception to the lights, but I'm not holding my breath.

Here's the junction: http://goo.gl/maps/9VNSC

I come across a few sets of lights that it'd make zero difference to any traffic if I went through on a red. There's a set on Albert Embankment near the fire station and another on Kennington Lane as you feed into Newington Butts and the ones on the corner of Victoria St and Great Smith St.

However, I always stop at every red light because not only is it the law, but every time a motorist sees a cyclist jump a red it adds a little more fuel to that idea that ALL cyclists jump EVERY red light. It's best to lead by example.

With the left turn from Victoria St to Great Smith St, I usually get off my bike and push it round the corner on the pavement than hop again and cycle off - seems silly really but it's complying with the law as it stands...

I think it would be good for the powers that be to make some adaptions for cyclists to go though, it is nice to get ahead of the rest of the traffic if it's safe and legal to do so.

 

[benb]

I come across a few sets of lights that it'd make zero difference to any traffic if I went through on a red. There's a set on Albert Embankment near the fire station and another on Kennington Lane as you feed into Newington Butts and the ones on the corner of Victoria St and Great Smith St.

However, I always stop at every red light because not only is it the law, but every time a motorist sees a cyclist jump a red it adds a little more fuel to that idea that ALL cyclists jump EVERY red light. It's best to lead by example.

With the left turn from Victoria St to Great Smith St, I usually get off my bike and push it round the corner on the pavement than hop again and cycle off - seems silly really but it's complying with the law as it stands...

I think it would be good for the powers that be to make some adaptions for cyclists to go though, it is nice to get ahead of the rest of the traffic if it's safe and legal to do so.

Yes, this is really the only reason I have thus far waited. However, I also think that the vast majority of drivers who dislike cyclists would continue to do so regardless of whether they ever saw a cyclist jumping a red. After all, they couldn't give a flying anything for the much more widespread lawbreaking of drivers.

I guess I could dismount, walk over the stop line, and then remount and continue.

 

[Davidsw8]

Yes, this is really the only reason I have thus far waited. However, I also think that the vast majority of drivers who dislike cyclists would continue to do so regardless of whether they ever saw a cyclist jumping a red. After all, they couldn't give a flying anything for the much more widespread lawbreaking of drivers.

You could be right, no harm in trying though.

Also, to be honest, jumping a red never seems to get those perpetrators where they're going any quicker - I usually catch up to them further down the road.

 

[benb]

You could be right, no harm in trying though.

Also, to be honest, jumping a red never seems to get those perpetrators where they're going any quicker - I usually catch up to them further down the road.

This is also true. This is the only light on my commute that I am tempted to do this with, so I'm not one of "those" cyclists!

 

[Paul99]

Is it possible for pedestrians to be crossing the road ahead while the straight on light is red?

 

[Frood42]

I personally would not.
I understand the view point of @deptfordmarmoset

However I think it is better to lead by example (although there will always be a minority of idiots no matter what you try to do).

Getting off the bike while still utilising the road and walking through the red light/over the stop line is just as bad.
If you want to get off and walk through the red light, stop before, walk on the pavement, clear the junction, then get back on the bike.

There was a similar thread on here:

http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/walking-through-red-lights.11264/

If you are walking your bike on the road you are propelling a vehicle so you must comply with traffic signs, which include red traffic lights.

So walk the bike onto the pavement before you pass the sign.

 

[benb]

Is it possible for pedestrians to be crossing the road ahead while the straight on light is red?

There's no actual crossing, but I would always be on the lookout for peds crossing no matter what the lights were on.

 

[sheffgirl]

I ran a red light today, only the second time I've ever done it . I was waiting on a quiet back road at some temporary lights due to road works. The light was red as I came up to it, I saw it turn amber, then it went back to red there was no-one coming ( there is good visibility) so I decided to go for it.
The only other time was waiting at a side road to join the totally empty dual carriageway, I think the lights were on a sensor which didn't pick me up. I could see a really long way so it was obvious that the road was clear.
Its not something I like to do.

 

[the_mikey]

I ran a red light today, only the second time I've ever done it . I was waiting on a quiet back road at some temporary lights due to road works. The light was red as I came up to it, I saw it turn amber, then it went back to red there was no-one coming ( there is good visibility) so I decided to go for it..

The traffic light presence sensors are often wire loops in the ground, bicycles usually don't trigger them as they're not big enough, although sometimes if it's needed when the road is busy, you can lean a bicycle on it's side with the front wheel across the wire in the ground (you may notice rectangle or diamond shaped cuts in the road surface) and trigger them that way. Alternatively dismount and cross the crossing, it's not ideal but at that point you're no longer a cyclist, and just a pedestrian with a bike.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

Got the same on my commute.
What I do is never ever skip any red lights when there is other road users about, don't wanna be thought of as another bloody red light jumping cyclist.
It can happen that the junction is completely deserted.
Then I will proceed without qualms

 

[campbellab]

Morally no-one should have to be subjected to the whims of a cheap timing circuit...

 

[benb]

Getting off the bike while still utilising the road and walking through the red light/over the stop line is just as bad.

If you are walking your bike on the road you are propelling a vehicle so you must comply with traffic signs, which include red traffic lights.

Not sure that this has been settled, legally speaking. AFAIK it's never been tested in court with regard to stop lines. Is the offence cycling over the line, or could it be interpreted as applying if you push it over the line on foot? I don't know.

Are you a pedestrian when you dismount your bicycle? What if you picked it up and carried it over the stop line?