ExBrit
Über Member
- Location
- Southern California
I didn't know that. It might work, then.
M to H conversion
- Thread starter CEBEP
- Start date
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Kell
Veteran
- Location
- High Wycombe/London
I think, as you say, it's probably best ot use it for a bit to make sure you're not spending money unnecessarily.
All things are very different now, but I went the other way to you. On my test ride, I found the S to be too low and the M to be a bit high. So with some (a lot of) help from this forum I ended up buying an H type and a set of non-OEM low riser bars. I ended up with a bar height somewhere in between an S and an M. I did measure it once, but I've no idea what I did with that info.
They're wider than Brompton bars, so I cut them down a bit and added bar ends. That was the reason I went for the H to begin with, to give me the most chance of the ends clearing the floor.
Which they do - just.
All things are very different now, but I went the other way to you. On my test ride, I found the S to be too low and the M to be a bit high. So with some (a lot of) help from this forum I ended up buying an H type and a set of non-OEM low riser bars. I ended up with a bar height somewhere in between an S and an M. I did measure it once, but I've no idea what I did with that info.
They're wider than Brompton bars, so I cut them down a bit and added bar ends. That was the reason I went for the H to begin with, to give me the most chance of the ends clearing the floor.
Which they do - just.
Well, it seems I'm lucky. I asked local dealer to offer new customers to swap handlebar stems if the H one will be too high for them. Availability of models here in Turkey is very limited so customers have to buy what's available if they like the color. It seems like they have an incoming flame laquer black edition with H stem that customer is willing to swap for M. So I'll only need to pay service charge to swap the stems and cables and nothing for parts.
I'll first use it with my handlebar. If it's too high I can upgrade handlebar with lower rise. If hight is fine then I'm thinking if it would make sence to upgrade handlebar with a wider one granted it will still fold? I think wider handlebar will improve handling and stability but not sure by how much and if it's worth the investment. I also read somewhere on the internet that some handlebar models have bar ends slightly angled toward the rider providing more natural grip angle.
Also would users recommend looking at titanium handlebars? I'm not a weight decrease freak but removing some weight wouldn't hurt. I'm mostly concerned with ti flex though. While I find flex of my ti seatpost useful for me, as it provides extra suspension, I'm not sure how flex in the handlebar will affect riding. Would aluminum be better option?
I'll first use it with my handlebar. If it's too high I can upgrade handlebar with lower rise. If hight is fine then I'm thinking if it would make sence to upgrade handlebar with a wider one granted it will still fold? I think wider handlebar will improve handling and stability but not sure by how much and if it's worth the investment. I also read somewhere on the internet that some handlebar models have bar ends slightly angled toward the rider providing more natural grip angle.
Also would users recommend looking at titanium handlebars? I'm not a weight decrease freak but removing some weight wouldn't hurt. I'm mostly concerned with ti flex though. While I find flex of my ti seatpost useful for me, as it provides extra suspension, I'm not sure how flex in the handlebar will affect riding. Would aluminum be better option?
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berlinonaut
Veteran
- Location
- Berlin Germany
Congrats! You are indeed lucky here!
If you go wider you'll very quickly have to go lower as well to maintain the fold. Going wider and lower changes the handling massively, in my eyes to the better. It obviously depends from your body shape (size, width of your shoulders i.e.) what combination works best but in general a wider bar makes the bike far less nervous and stock H is too high ergonomically for most persons anyway. At the same time the H stem offers the most possibilies to experiment with different bars. On my touring Brompton i.e. I do run a post 2017 H stem along with a lightly rised and cut down MTB bar at a width of a tad over 60cm (including the Ergon grips, in my case GR2) . That's more or less about 10cm wider than stock. Dramatic effect, I love it. On the negative obviously you are now a bit more limited to filter through thick traffic on the bike, but that's not too relevant for me usually, especially not on the touring Bromton.
Opposite experience: My first S-Brompton had the old, slimmer S-bars from factory, that were just about 47cm wide. I found the bike far too nervous and not much fun to ride. A year or two after that Brompton enhanced the width of the S-bars, so I was possibly not the only one.
On the Brompton most ti-bars as replacement for the stock bars do in fact not reduce weight (either not at all or not relevantly). Therefor I never saw the need for ti-bars or a possible advantage of them. Flex in the handlebars is nothing you will like I can promise you. In case you are missing front suspension and are willing to invest considerable money: Velospring grips do get very positive user feedback. Personally I am happy enough with Ergons.
@berlinonaut thanks for info. I never thought there are handlebars with suspension, putting price point aside I didn't find any user reviews in English.
I'm 185cm high, don't know what my shoulder width is though. What do you think would be the right handlebar hight/width for me? Any handlebar brands designed specifically for Brompton I should look at? I head Joseph Kuosac have good ergonomic design of the handlebar for Brompton with bar ends bend towards the rider offering more natural grip.
I checked Aliexpress for some ideas and there lots of models for Brompton. Here are few available. Which do you think would be suitable one? These are pretty expensive to order few and check which one would fit which would basically mean to dispose of the rest purchased.
I'm 185cm high, don't know what my shoulder width is though. What do you think would be the right handlebar hight/width for me? Any handlebar brands designed specifically for Brompton I should look at? I head Joseph Kuosac have good ergonomic design of the handlebar for Brompton with bar ends bend towards the rider offering more natural grip.
I checked Aliexpress for some ideas and there lots of models for Brompton. Here are few available. Which do you think would be suitable one? These are pretty expensive to order few and check which one would fit which would basically mean to dispose of the rest purchased.
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Can anyone share experience with Joseph Kuosac mid raise handlebar? Assuming I'll be able to keep it wider which should be a right match for me and not cause any issues with cables on H stem. Or should I go with full raise? Is there a way I can calculate the hight difference between my current M bar setup and H stem + JK mid raise and full raise?
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berlinonaut
Veteran
- Location
- Berlin Germany
This is really personal taste in the end and ergonmically dependent from your personal body dimensions. As a rule of thumb the bars should be at max level with the saddle, but preferably lower. Personally I have the bars usually about 10cm lower than the saddle, more is not uncommon (especially if you are more sporty than me). So bar height is basically a derivate from saddle height and this again depends frm the length of your legs. What are you currently missing? This may give an indication in which direction to change. You should be prepared to possibly try out a bunch of different bar setups in terms of height and width until you finally find the best personal setup. I fiddeled around for many years until I found what I thought was my perfect setup (pre 2017 H-stem with post 2017 M/H-bars), rode it happily for a bunch of years until l aquired a used Brompton last year from someone that has more or less my dimensions and had fitted a wider but lower bar - which turned out to be even better and more comfy for me. To get en entry to the topic this pdf may help: https://junik-hpv.de/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Bike_Ergonomics_for_All_People.pdf It is a couple of years old already and a tiny subset of Juliane's book on the topic but as her book is not available in English possibly the best entry point.
Again: What are you missing? JK bars are fine and worth the money in my eyes, just they should fit your needs to be really worth buying.
Number 1 and 2 will not fit the H stem, number 3 and 4 will. You do not have to limit yourself to bars designed for the Brompton - almost any bar that has the correct clamping diameter will fit. Obviously not all will support the fold (i.e. racing bars won't), but the whole range of MTB bars is of interest. They can be cut down regarding width, you only have to care to leave enough room for the grips on the flat part.
The current Brompton M/H bars offer about 125-133mm rise, depending from how you measure it. More rise is barely possible, way less is recommended and sometimes even necessary if you go massively wider than stock. Stock handlebar height on the M model is 1012mm from the ground, on the H model 1072mm. The H stem height is bar height + handlebar rise. Based on these basic parameters you are free to play with various bars to achieve whatever fits you best in terms of height and width. Stock width is I think about 52cm, but that you can easily measure yourself on your bike.
@berlinonaut thanks. With H stem I'm trying to achieve two things:
1. see if I can ride comfortably with higher handlebar to ease load of my lower back
2. have more options to go wider, as H stem allows to accommodate the fold
What I want to achieve: I will first use it with stock handlebar on H stem and see how comfortable it will be. However it's impossible to understand how riding stability will improve and how comfortable a wider handlebar will be, also considering JK bars have high angle towards the rider.
If wider grip will translate to lower rise, which makes sense considering humans body geometry, I wander how my handlebar on H stem would translate to JK wider handlebar high rise or mid raise.
So I have to buy one to try. And these are not particularly cheap considering shipping + imprint tax which will put the bar's price to about $75 or more. That's what I'm trying to understand, which of the JK to consider.
1. see if I can ride comfortably with higher handlebar to ease load of my lower back
2. have more options to go wider, as H stem allows to accommodate the fold
What I want to achieve: I will first use it with stock handlebar on H stem and see how comfortable it will be. However it's impossible to understand how riding stability will improve and how comfortable a wider handlebar will be, also considering JK bars have high angle towards the rider.
If wider grip will translate to lower rise, which makes sense considering humans body geometry, I wander how my handlebar on H stem would translate to JK wider handlebar high rise or mid raise.
So I have to buy one to try. And these are not particularly cheap considering shipping + imprint tax which will put the bar's price to about $75 or more. That's what I'm trying to understand, which of the JK to consider.
Ive got a 2015 "M" Brompton and I replaced the standard bars with the equivalent JK Bars so I could fit 130mm Ergon grips. This worked well, the JK bars have etched markings to help with trimming the bars. I trimmed them asymmetrically so the bar didn't hit the floor on folding.
I also have the JK mid rise bar that I was planning on fitting to my 2019 "S" Brompton but I've not got around to that yet. Having said all that I think the JK bars are a good product and a worthy upgrade.
@Tenkaykev thanks. Can you say that JK bars higher 12 degree bend angle towards rider really makes a difference in riding quality and comfort?
berlinonaut
Veteran
- Location
- Berlin Germany
Higher than M: Possible. As high as stock H: possibly not, as H is too high for almost everyone.
The JK mid rise is a good product in my opinion and I considered it not to be overly expensive (rather the opposite). In the UK it is "just" GBP 25, so either your source is expensive or cost add up until it is with you. The width of 600mm is perfect to cut to own needs. But I'd rather see the bar on the S-stem than on the H at 100mm rise as the difference to stock H ist not too big and the outcome therefor maybe still too high. According to JK themselves the midrise has just 71mm rise - this would be pretty perfect in my eyes: https://josephkuosac.com/product/steering-parts/handlebar/handlebar-o25-4mm/ You have to find out by testing on your own. I do run only a 50mm riser on mine (and would admittedly probably not have gone for it on my own - it was fitted to the bike when I bought it and works perfectly well).
I may have mentioned previously that my day to day bike is a 2015 M frame in Orange/ Back. I don’t often ride my 2019 S frame, but when I do it initially feels as though I’m falling over the handlebars though I quickly get used to it. That’s the reason I got the JK midrise, to make the S frame a little more upright while still maintaining a “ sporty “ look. I’ve not swapped the bars yet as part of me doesn’t want the faff of fitting new cables, and wanting to preserve the looks of the bike ( CHPT3)
Kell
Veteran
- Location
- High Wycombe/London
@berlinonaut has already posted a link to his friend's excellent work on ergonomics on bikes. It's sometimes counterintuitive to what you might expect. i.e. sitting more upright (too upright) is likely to cause more problems with your back, rather than fewer.
Now I'm not an expert, and nor would I claim to be, but if you're interested in resolving the problem without spending a shitload of cash, then it might be a good place to start.
It's tough, because there are recommendations in there that go against other things I've read online (like she doesn't like SQLabs saddles) but it's a free way to get started.
I think from memory that she recommends no more than 10cm higher for your bars compared to your saddle height, but the ideal thing being (again from memory) achieving a 90 degree angle between your arm and your bike.
Point two - I cut down some MTB bars on an (older) H stem. They're wider than Brompton bars, but not massively. I just found it more comfortable. I didn't want to leave them too wide as it reduces your ability to filter through traffic. But I think in terms of being able to fold the bike, I could have left them a little wider.
I will measure them and report back...
