Motorsports Thread

[Bonefish Blues]

I'm no metallurgist but this doesn't ring true at all to me.

It takes a lot more heat to change the molecular properties of steel than can be explained in the microseconds that the impact lasted for.
If the impact generated that much heat in an instant there'd have been nothing left.

Bear in mind that double height armcos are literally two armcos on top of each other, with a gap between, rather than a single piece of metal.
My guess is that the collision punched a hole in this gap and the survival cell acted like a wedge, forcing them apart.

This seems most likely, I agree.

 

[matticus]

Love this comment from the Autosport forum:

tbh i'm still waiting for the FIA to fine Grosjean for not replacing the steering wheel after he got out

 

[Edwardoka]

I'm sorry, but it's 45 degrees at most. Grosjean left the main track at an angle of only 10-15 degrees from it. That barrier is itself at quite a shallow angle.

View the footage here (first post, of the Sky footage from above), freezing after 6 seconds, and note the tyre marks:

https://www.sportbible.com/f1/f1-ne...eans-miraculous-escape-from-f1-crash-20201129

I'm not keen on getting into a forensic debate about a car crash, but I rewatched the clip several times for the purposes of this reply and honestly I feel quite grossed out by the whole thing now.

It's true that he was still carrying a lot of lateral velocity when he hit the armco, but his trajectory was definitely yawing to the right just before the point of impact.

Also necessary to point out that the camera angles will mess with perspective and perception of angles, an effect not helped by the camera rotating while being on a moving helicopter.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I am going by tyre marks, their measurable (were one minded) relationship with the tarmac of the track, and the angle of the barrier from your overhead shot. It is what it is. I think some observers have been mislead by the shot we first saw looking back down the track where it looks for all the world as if he has run straight into an Armco wall because of the foreshortening effect of the lens (let's call it 'Bournemouth Beach Effect' of (non) social distancing so loved by the tabloids earlier this year!)

Once the safety cell had penetrated the barrier, likely as you said due to it acting as a super-strong wedge, the rear of the car simply tore itself off and came to rest on the track side of the barrier.

 

[figbat]

But the reason the rear end came away is because of a lateral force as the wedge went into the barrier at a yaw angle to the right, generating a significant turning moment as the front end stopped suddenly and the rear pivoted to the left.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I don't know exactly how it happened. In my layman's terms the front of the wedge went through the barrier, stopped as the main monocoque was unable to penetrate in the way the cell had been, and in essence carried on, possibly 'aided' by the scissoring action of the upper and lower elements of the Armco itself shearing the two elements.

I'm assuming that the FIA will publish its report in due course which will provide a forensic account (not perhaps helped by the need to immediately rebuild for the restart)

 

[Reynard]

I'm no metallurgist but this doesn't ring true at all to me.

It takes a lot more heat to change the molecular properties of steel than can be explained in the microseconds that the impact lasted for.
If the impact generated that much heat in an instant there'd have been nothing left.

Bear in mind that double height armcos are literally two armcos on top of each other, with a gap between, rather than a single piece of metal.
My guess is that the collision punched a hole in this gap and the survival cell acted like a wedge, forcing them apart.

If you've done any projectile-based impact testing, you really do not want to be touching the hole that's been made. DAMHIKT...

Seriously, the forces and heat generated at those speeds are pretty significant. Besides, the shape of the Armco gives it a fair bit of rigidity (it's the same principle as the corrugation on a baked bean can) and it takes a lot of welly to bend it out of shape.

 

[Edwardoka]

If you've done any projectile-based impact testing, you really do not want to be touching the hole that's been made. DAMHIKT...

Seriously, the forces and heat generated at those speeds are pretty significant. Besides, the shape of the Armco gives it a fair bit of rigidity (it's the same principle as the corrugation on a baked bean can) and it takes a lot of welly to bend it out of shape.

I've never done any safety testing (indeed, soldering is about my limit when it comes to hot work) so I'll defer to your experience about not touching glowing metal

Isn't the point of Armco barriers that they're only rigid for minor, glancing collisions, and that in big collisions the beams are designed to resist failure in the direction of impact while flexing along their length in order to dissipate the kinetic energy? A barrier that is rigid under all circumstances would be lethal.

Judging by photos of the wreck and the shot of the back of the barrier, it looks like the stacked beams were bolted together with either C-channels or I-beams, with enough vertical spacing between each section for light to shine through - easily enough for a wedge to be riven. At least one of these vertical beams was sheared clean through.

Major questions definitely need to be asked as a result of this. But my research is starting to enter "jet fuel can't melt steel beams" territory, so am going to bow out.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Lewis Hamilton will miss at least the next, and possibly the final, GP of the season after testing positive for Covid.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55142428

I’m not entirely surprised, given the lip service often paid to maintain distance and hygiene precautions within the sport.

Still, it will be a shame that he didn’t hit 100 pole positions before the next season.

 

[matticus]

We're all focusing on driver safety here - but don't forget the barriers also serve to protect all the people/things outside of the track*. So when we say that so-and-so is designed to do x and Y, in reality all the designs are compromises - and that includes cost and ease-of-installation.

*armco is used on public roads; I would say it either stops cars falling down ravines, or it stops cars on dual-carriageways crossing into oncoming traffic. Any energy absorption properties may be only secondary.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

Lewis Hamilton will miss at least the next, and possibly the final, GP of the season after testing positive for Covid.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/55142428

I’m not entirely surprised, given the lip service often paid to maintain distance and hygiene precautions within the sport.

Still, it will be a shame that he didn’t hit 100 pole positions before the next season.

Hulk's been busy this year, I expect he'll get a drive in one seat or another this coming weekend!

 

[Deleted member 26715]

Hulk's been busy this year, I expect he'll get a drive in one seat or another this coming weekend!

They have Stoffel Vandoorne, so Hulk won't be needed, in a perfect world Vandoorne would drop in at Williams & Russell would be allowed to put on his big boy pants & show what he is capable of, currently he is better than the car, but would that translate in a Mercedes. Afterall that's where he will be in 2022 when both Hamilton & Wolff have left the team.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

They have Stoffel Vandoorne, so Hulk won't be needed, in a perfect world Vandoorne would drop in at Williams & Russell would be allowed to put on his big boy pants & show what he is capable of, currently he is better than the car, but would that translate in a Mercedes. Afterall that's where he will be in 2022 when both Hamilton & Wolff have left the team.

Haas is the more likely, I agree, but the more seats the better.

 

[matticus]

I am going by tyre marks, their measurable (were one minded) relationship with the tarmac of the track, and the angle of the barrier from your overhead shot. It is what it is. I think some observers have been mislead by the shot we first saw looking back down the track where it looks for all the world as if he has run straight into an Armco wall because of the foreshortening effect of the lens (let's call it 'Bournemouth Beach Effect' of (non) social distancing so loved by the tabloids earlier this year!)

IMO it was indeed a much more "glancing" angle than some are saying, this is a freeze-frame (an overhead shot would be better, there may be distortion/foreshortening here):

 

[Deleted member 26715]

Haas is the more likely, I agree, but the more seats the better.

No they have already announced they are using their reserve driver, Pietro Fittipaldi