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Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
whipping the old map out
I suggest that many groups (like the OP's perhaps) don't carry paper maps so they are slaves to the little machine on their handlebars 'Kylie says "At the junction, turn right"'. This gives little perspective of the general (road) layout of the countryside through which they've routed their ride (which I think is their loss) and limited inclination to divert from the 'pink line'. The ubiquitous use of such navigational aids has, I surmise, also led to the general atrophy of navigational skills (I speak with all the prejudice and hubris derived from a long term competitive orienteering background).
Electronic navigational aids mean riders can follow a route, irrespective of their navigational expertise, which is a good thing (but I do resent the advantage of my hard-earned navigational excellence (ha ha) being emasculated by a little screen on another rider's bars - but this a bit like taking umbrage at whether others are wearing lycra or 'team strip' (see other 'elitist cockwomble' thread).
I carry only ripped out atlas pages, folded, and a list of places/mileages (routesheets for audaxes but often not for immediate reference). For me, navigation during the ride is part of the fun, and errors can offer the opportunity to use navigational expertise to make a good (if not best) route choice to get to the next village/'checkpoint'/coffee stop.
But I put significant effort into route and navigational preparation before any long rides: for me this is key. For example on the Mille Pennines in the summer my navigational errors amounted to <1% which I can balance against minor route choices made after careful online and map examination which saved me a little more than 1%.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I suggest that many groups (like the OP's perhaps) don't carry paper maps so they are slaves to the little machine on their handlebars 'Kylie says "At the junction, turn right"'. This gives little perspective of the general (road) layout of the countryside through which they've routed their ride (which I think is their loss) and limited inclination to divert from the 'pink line'. The ubiquitous use of such navigational aids has, I surmise, also led to the general atrophy of navigational skills (I speak with all the prejudice and hubris derived from a long term competitive orienteering background).
Yeah, that's quite some prejudice. First of all, how do you think the routes get into the little machines? Secondly, it's much easier to vary the route by browsing the machine map than it is if you're following a route card / cue sheet... and most importantly, the map stored in wafers of silicon is far more likely to be up-to-date than ink on wafers of dead tree pulp - plus if it's wrong, you can correct it and share that correction with everyone else, instead of it being kept your secret until some self-appointed gods of mapping issue a new set of dead tree.

Its pretty widely known that most Sustrans routes can be a bit unreliable, tending to follow the safest or quietest traffic free route as opposed to the most direct or rideable, and are aimed at all cycling groups not just peletons of roadies.
If it's not suitable for "peletons of roadies", then it's not "aimed at all cycling groups", is it? It's as much a sin to be unsuitable for the fast riders as it is to be unsuitable for cargo trikes IMO - and thankfully the latest update to the Design Manual for Roads and Bridges seems to have moved in this direction, with the first part of module 2 of https://cycletraffic-elearning.com opening the eyes of a lot of engineers to the range of cycles that are actually used.

Problems arise with lack of prior planning or peoples ability to reroute during a ride. Yes it would be great if all routes were hard surface and traffic free, but whats wrong with either planning to avoid the bits that are dodgy before you leave or whipping the old map out when you come across a bit that your bike or ability can't handle and finding another route around.
How much prior planning do you think people should have to do? If I want to drive to Birmingham, three hours away, then I get in my car, follow signs for the Midlands, then for Birmingham and then for a car park. It helps if I know that both Peterborough and Spalding are acceptable alternative waypoints but I don't need to. I can just follow the signs. If I want to cycle to somewhere three hours away along Sustrans routes, then I need to check and remember lists of extra waypoints to avoid the bits where they go on a five-mile detour through several Wisbech suburbs and the town centre or go very muddy (on the approaches to March and Whittlesey), which is extra faff you just don't have to do when driving. That's just not SUStainable TRANSport, so surely it's a fair criticism of so-called Sustrans routes?

And just to add another favourite refrain: look abroad. You get off the boat in the Netherlands, follow cycle route signs for Den Haag or Rotterdam and it just works and you're not going to be dumped onto the gravel leisure routes. Even farking France is within 2 roads of making it work for arriving on boats there - at the moment, the route network doesn't seem to reach the port gates like in the Netherlands, but once you find your way onto it, it seems to work without the mad mud of our network.
 
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DanZac

Senior Member
Location
Basingstoke
If I want to drive to Birmingham, three hours away, then I get in my car, follow signs for the Midlands, then for Birmingham and then for a car park. It helps if I know that both Peterborough and Spalding are acceptable alternative waypoints but I don't need to. I can just follow the signs. If I want to cycle to somewhere three hours away along Sustrans routes, then I need to check and remember lists of extra waypoints to avoid the bits where they go on a five-mile detour through several Wisbech suburbs and the town centre or go very muddy (on the approaches to March and Whittlesey), which is extra faff you just don't have to do when driving. That's just not SUStainable TRANSport, so surely it's a fair criticism of so-called Sustrans routes?

I fully agree with your point both here and those made earlier regarding having to spend hours pouring over maps and routes, and agree that it shouldn't be neccecery. Unfortunately though, until serious money is allocated to cycling and I suspect walkers and horse riders have the same complaints about footpaths etc then planning needs be taken into consideration if your using these routes, just as you would to ensure that the road your planning to cycle on doesn't turn into a motorway or become a dead end half way along.

A quick look at any road map will instantly show where the Sustrans routes go off road, on one of their ridiculous detours or suddenly end, allowing these bits to be either avoided or looked at in more detail to decide if they are rideable or not.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
... and I suspect walkers and horse riders have the same complaints about footpaths etc
I'm pretty sure that long-distance walking routes around here have managed to signpost things that are more consistent than Sustrans routes, the so-called "Norfolk Trails". I really ought to try following the walking signs from my village to the nearest town to check it but it's fine a few miles in the opposite direction.

A quick look at any road map will instantly show where the Sustrans routes go off road, on one of their ridiculous detours or suddenly end, allowing these bits to be either avoided or looked at in more detail to decide if they are rideable or not.
Sustrans routes go off-carriageway loads in my experience - most of them are fine but that's still a heck of a lot of sections to check in more detail and very time-consuming. Every rider checking every bit of off-road doesn't scale - Sustrans really should divert sections that their volunteers and officers report as unrideable for some bikes but I only remember seeing that happen once.

Also, some of what are technically on-road sections (rather old streetview from 2009 and I don't think it's had any repairs since - there was more broken surface than flat last time I tried it and I'm not sure the google car would risk it now) are currently worse than some gravel.
 

NorthernDave

Never used Über Member
The problem is that looking at a map won't help you determine the surface quality before you actually get there.

NCR66 near me is a good example. Miles of it are on "bridleway" - the first bit is a good enough all weather surface that I can (and have) taken my carbon road bike on. The next bit is a rocky rutted section that my hybrid copes with fine but that I wouldn't dream of taking a road bike on.
After that is a mudfest with lots of standing water that I've struggled through on the hybrid, but for much of the year is only really suited to an experienced rider on an MTB with decent off road tyres.

But the whole lot is just shown as bridleway on the OS map, and the Sustrans map gives you no clue at all.
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
My suspicion is that Sustrans are acutely aware of the problem raised in this thread. The latest edition of their newsletter to supporters announces a full review of the network, acknowledging that they've focussed too much on quantity and not enough on quality. Whether they will be able to do a great deal about some of them in the short run, who knows?
 

Ming the Merciless

There is no mercy
Location
Inside my skull
Open street map allows you to tag the surface type along paths, tracks, roads etc. Unfortunately that information is not shown on open street map or open cycle map as acessed through a browser. I have generated mapping in Basecamp on my PC that allows me to see which bits of a cycle track are paved and which bits are not.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Open street map allows you to tag the surface type along paths, tracks, roads etc. Unfortunately that information is not shown on open street map or open cycle map as acessed through a browser.
You can do it at least two ways:

1. click the ? tool in the side bar on www.openstreetmap.org and then click the section of road and then pick the "Way" and read the surface information in the results box like in http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/46100585 which shows surface=grass - time-consuming to do for long journeys, so best saved for short critical links that would be awkward to avoid on the day;

2. unsurfaced sections are rendered as dashed lines on cycle.travel/map (I think) and highlighted in green when it's part of a planned route. There may be other ways to do it.

It's also not comprehensive. While http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/40779534 (NSFW or small children) is informative, I doubt any maps render it appropriately!
 

Ming the Merciless

There is no mercy
Location
Inside my skull
You can do it at least two ways:

1. click the ? tool in the side bar on www.openstreetmap.org and then click the section of road and then pick the "Way" and read the surface information in the results box like in http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/46100585 which shows surface=grass - time-consuming to do for long journeys, so best saved for short critical links that would be awkward to avoid on the day;

2. unsurfaced sections are rendered as dashed lines on cycle.travel/map (I think) and highlighted in green when it's part of a planned route. There may be other ways to do it.

It's also not comprehensive. While http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/40779534 (NSFW or small children) is informative, I doubt any maps render it appropriately!

1 as you say is very time consuming , and 2 is not true. Just looked at the mapping for cycle tracks near me that have always been paved, are marked as paved, and show as dashed lines.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
1 as you say is very time consuming , and 2 is not true. Just looked at the mapping for cycle tracks near me that have always been paved, are marked as paved, and show as dashed lines.
That's not what the key says should be happening and ones near me are correct. Can you give some examples, please? I'm sure @Richard Fairhurst would like to correct any rendering faults.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I stand corrected I had not noticed you were referring to cycle.travel/map in part 2 rather than osm or ocm. Good to know I can see it online when out and about. Not just on my PC.
Cool, sorry for any confusion. I agree it's unhelpful that neither ocm nor hikebikemap seem to render the surface type.
 
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