Nice quote.

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screenman

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So what you are saying is that in an accident you are more likely to damage your knee than you shoulder or head.

I just read the report, notice something extremely important about it? Like the date and that they would have been reporting on people who were wearing crash helmets.

"Bicycle-related injuries are a major concern in most of countries and head injuries is one of the unwanted results of bicycle use. The purpose of this study was to investigate characteristics of injuries in professional cyclists. Injury data over a period of a year (2009–2010) on 93 cyclists"
 
So what you are saying is that in an accident you are more likely to damage your knee than you shoulder or head.

I just read the report, notice something extremely important about it? Like the date and that they would have been reporting on people who were wearing crash helmets.

"Bicycle-related injuries are a major concern in most of countries and head injuries is one of the unwanted results of bicycle use. The purpose of this study was to investigate characteristics of injuries in professional cyclists. Injury data over a period of a year (2009–2010) on 93 cyclists"

... Exactly!

Let's get this clear, once and for all?

What I have said is that peer reviewed evidence shows that the most common injuries are NOT fractured clavicles by a large margin. The claim that they are is simply not supported by peer reviewed evidence

The reason that 2009-2010 is appropriate is that the unfounded claim made that Clavicle fractures are the most common injury is made for this period of time!

Quote from Giovanni Treduci.

" The most common injuries the medical team sees at races are fractured collarbones. Before helmets were made compulsory it was head trauma injuries, my area of expertise.

The claim is disproven by peer reviewed evidence comensurate with the date to which the claim applies.
 
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screenman

Legendary Member
Mr Treduci was talking about a 20 year span and the times when helmets were not worn to when they were. You are comparing this with a report on when helmets were worn, no comparison end of.
 
Mr Treduci was talking about a 20 year span and the times when helmets were not worn to when they were.

Was he?

He did not say that, he made a statement that was in the resent tense and hence applies to the period the statement was made, read the statement and he uses the word "sees" - present tense.

It is your quotation.. Would you care to enlighten us all as to the date the statement was made?

(Edited - actually it would be courteous for you to reference the statement in it's original context)


His claim is that fractured clavicles are the most common injuries and this is neither supported or verified by any peer reviewed data.

You are comparing this with a report on when helmets were worn, no comparison end of.

The point several times and still the case is that this is simply untrue.

I am comparing the time when the statement was made... with research carried out at the time that the statement was made!



Simples....

1. Tredici has stated (in the present tense) that the most common injuries are fractured clavicles
2. The report applies to the same time period as the statement, and disproves this
3. The peer reviewed evidence does not support the claim[/quote][/quote]
 

Paul J

Guest
If you 'shadow box' at the wall but carefully stop your fist about 50 mm before it reaches the wall (be sure it's limited by your arm's length), no harm will come to your fist. If, without changing your position, you slip a 75 mm thick piece of styrofoam against the wall and repeat the punch, you'll get compressed (and cracked) styrofoam and false 'evidence' that it saved you from harm. In other words, many impacts of helmets would be near misses with bare heads.

read the rest here
 
I work on the assumption that an helmet will save me from road rash to the head, no more and no less. I suspect road rash of the head would be painful. On this basis I wear an helmet (sometimes)
 
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screenman

Legendary Member
C, your report was about a period 2009 to 2010 when helmets were being worn, hence less head injuries in races. The Doctor was quoting 20 years of picking racers up from the side of the road, real life experience I would have thought must count for something.
 
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screenman

Legendary Member
PaulJ, we all know that old story is absolute rubbish and has little to do with helmet protection. Mind you let us insist that you try hitting the wall with your fist hard, then put the piece of Polystyrene in between and try again.

Failing that place the top of your head on the pavement and run along the road with it still on the pavement, try the same with a helmet on, I will pay you £10 to let me film it.
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
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C, your report was about a period 2009 to 2010 when helmets were being worn, hence less head injuries in races. The Doctor was quoting 20 years of picking racers up from the side of the road, real life experience I would have thought must count for something.

The Doctor stated that the most common injury in the period 2009-2010 was broken clavicles. The report shows this to be false. Given that half of this chap's statement is demonstrably false, what reason do we have to believe the other half? He has no credibility,after all.

Not incidentally, it must be pointed out that "head trauma" does not necessarily mean brain injury.
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
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Interesting, thanks for that.

However, we don't know at which point precisely the failure mode changes so it's as unwise to suggest that we can't rely on them as it is to suggest that we can?

Presumably a fracture during impact at the helmet's rated speeds would mean the helmets do not absorb enough energy to pass the required standard, which might well be costly for manufacturers. As such, are these helmets built in with a safety factor?

Additionally, would it be fair to suggest that the first head impact would tend to be most severe and any further impact would likely be less so?

I feel you are being quite reserved in not over-stating the real truth of the materials science behind helmets; are you merely against the blind faith that many have in helmets or do you think there is a good reason to avoid wearing one?

One argument commonly brought up is that helmets increase the risk of rotational/strain injuries to the neck. The weight of a human head being around 4-5kg, compared with that of a helmet (250g for mine, maybe a bit more for cheap £20 shells though), seems to make this quite unlikely. Do you have an opinion on this?

Many thanks mate

Material scientists and metallurgists tend to classify materials into two categories: "tough" and "brittle". A tough material retards crack propagation while a brittle material is susceptible to crack propagation (contrast the results when you drop a steel enamelled mug (tough) - it bounces - with a brittle glass). Even tough materials will behave in brittle manner under certain circumstances and it's difficult to predict just when that will happen.

The more upmarket helmets are sold on being light and less bulky than cheaper ones. The only way that can be achieved is to use stiffer foam. Though that means the forces in any impact will be higher, it does have the benefit that the stiffer foam will provide more protection if the impact is against something pointed such as a kerb. Unfortunately, stiffer foam is also more brittle so is more likely to fail in a brittle fashion in high energy impacts. The significance of this is and the exact energy that this happens is impossible to say - it also depends on the shape of the helmet, the shell and the object that impacts it.

Helmets are designed down to the standards. To design in a 50% safety margin over the standard requires 50% more material. With something that whose selling points are lightness and small bulk, this is something of a disadvantage. It is a route that a manufacturer is unlikely to take because it won't help them sell helmets.

Whether the first is worse than subsequent impacts depends very much on the exact circumstances of the accident. Though in my most recent crash, it wasn't the first impact that broke my ankle...

It is not the weight of the helmet that increases the probability of rotational injury, it is its bulk. A helmet makes your head larger, thereby making a head impact more likely. Further, the bulk means that impact forces are applied further out from essential structures such as the spinal cord: this has a leverage effect that increases rotational forces by 10-20%. The types of injury caused by rotational forces - spinal, basal skull fractures and diffuse axonal injury - are all amongst the most serious.
 

Paul J

Guest
PaulJ, we all know that old story is absolute rubbish and has little to do with helmet protection. Mind you let us insist that you try hitting the wall with your fist hard, then put the piece of Polystyrene in between and try again.

Failing that place the top of your head on the pavement and run along the road with it still on the pavement, try the same with a helmet on, I will pay you £10 to let me film it.

Carry on believing that a thin peace of blow moulded plastic and compressed little polystyrene balls are going to save your life and protect you while you carry out your stunt mentioned above.
 

PpPete

Legendary Member
Location
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Helmets are designed down to the standards. To design in a 50% safety margin over the standard requires 50% more material. With something that whose selling points are lightness and small bulk, this is something of a disadvantage. It is a route that a manufacturer is unlikely to take because it won't help them sell helmets.

True... and it rather reduces the argument to one about how appropriate the standards are.
Clearly, in the tragic case of the Wouter Weylandt mentioned above, a helmet designed to provide protection to an almost stationary rider falling on to a kerb (or if you prefer, designed down to meet EN1078 - which amounts to the same thing), was not appropriate.
I rather doubt whether a Snell B95 rated helmet would have provided any more protection.
 
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screenman

Legendary Member
PaulJ, who mentioned life saving? a helmet can also protect from minor injuries as well. No reason for me to do the stunt as I am fully aware that I would be better off wearing a helmet whilst doing it, others seem to think that it would be more harmful.
 
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