No wonder the Scots want out

[sazzaa]

Move on? What about the subsequent governments, have they?

Who cares, it's unhealthy to cling to the past like that.

 

[byegad]

I was watching a thing about the South Sudan Football team earlier, and I seem to have Africa on the brain currently as I misread 'Cameron' for 'Cameroon'.

Needless to say I had to read your post twice!!

If he loses Scotland from the Union does that make him a Macaroon?

 

[MikeG]

If he loses Scotland from the Union does that make him a Macaroon?

Nah, it probably makes him Prime Minister. Losing about 50 Labour MPs won't do his chances any harm.

 

[CopperBrompton]

Nah, it probably makes him Prime Minister. Losing about 50 Labour MPs won't do his chances any harm.

There's no probably about it:

 

[byegad]

No wonder with the attitude of some Scots! People really need to get a grip and move on...

Nothing to do with Scots attitudes.

From a purely NE English point of view, Scottish independence could benefit us because at the moment we don't exist in the London-centric mind set.

Examples;
HS2 to the 'North' aka Birmingham (Carlisle 200 miles and Berwick upon Tweed 270 miles further North both English towns.)
HS2 extension to even further North Manchester and Leeds. (Carlisle 207 miles from Manchester and Berwick upon Tweed 160 miles from Leeds).

Since Scotland got their own government we in the NE have ceased to exists in British political life and IMHO losing Scotland might, just might benefit us. However. From a UK point of view I sincerely think we in the rest of the UK and Scotland are better off as a single country. The choice isn't mine but I know a few years back a poll (Sorry can't find it now.) suggested that the proportion of North East English voters in favour of Scottish independence was several percent higher than the same poll in Scotland.

 

[Louch]

Scotlands independence will lead to greater relationships with england than exist now. Scotland hasn't influenced a Westminster parliament in decades. being our own country is best for all, staying together is only beneficial for the upper classes. im guessing those anti independence on this thread havent been to a food bank and seen the poverty some are living in under Tory rule. How anyone can say they are a No voter because they hate salmond, and be happy to the live under Cameron and chums truly baffles me.

 

[sazzaa]

Nothing to do with Scots attitudes.

From a purely NE English point of view, Scottish independence could benefit us because at the moment we don't exist in the London-centric mind set.

Examples;
HS2 to the 'North' aka Birmingham (Carlisle 200 miles and Berwick upon Tweed 270 miles further North both English towns.)
HS2 extension to even further North Manchester and Leeds. (Carlisle 207 miles from Manchester and Berwick upon Tweed 160 miles from Leeds).

Since Scotland got their own government we in the NE have ceased to exists in British political life and IMHO losing Scotland might, just might benefit us. However. From a UK point of view I sincerely think we in the rest of the UK and Scotland are better off as a single country. The choice isn't mine but I know a few years back a poll (Sorry can't find it now.) suggested that the proportion of North East English voters in favour of Scottish independence was several percent higher than the same poll in Scotland.

You're moaning about the use of the word north? Really? What other way can they describe building a line which travels in that direction?

 

[byegad]

HS2 'To the North' was supposed to boost Northern economies. Last time I looked Birmingham was in the Midlands.

 

[Louch]

HS2 'To the North' was supposed to boost Northern economies. Last time I looked Birmingham was in the Midlands.

give it a few years and you can come join us

 

[Pikey]

I'm not going to wade into a morass that properly belongs in another forum section, but I will make two brief points before ducking out.

First, snobbery has nothing to do with it. I just find it depressing to live in a country that's clearly so profoundly conservative-with-a-small-c that we still find ourselves, in the early part of the 21st century, so utterly dominated by a hermetically-sealed caste, essentially unchanged since 1066.

Did you know that after the conquest, William the Conqueror took half the country for himself, gave half of the remainder to the church and the final quarter to his chums, and that as of today, that land remains 90%+ in the same hands? All countries have their rich and poor, it goes without saying. But I know of no other so clearly - and apparently immovably - split between the rulers and the ruled. "The rich man in his castle, the poor man at his gate, God made them high or lowly, and ordered their estate." The (second) sons of the ruling classes used to have the peasants sing that every Sunday, to reassure them that appearances notwithstanding, all was as it should be. They're a little more subtle about things nowadays, but that's all that's changed.

And, second, 'it only matters how good a job they are doing' assumes that politics is functional/managerial - like fixing and maintaining machinery. It isn't. Politics is about more than that. It's about organising basic things like who gets what, and how much. And with old Etonians in charge, no prizes for guessing whose interests will actually be safeguarded and promoted at Westminster.

Why would it make the slightest difference? Well, if you look at more enlightened European nations, not dissimilar to ours in many ways, such as Holland, Denmark, Belgium, you can see just how immensely different things could be, if we weren't as a nation still busy tugging our forelocks to our 'betters'. If we had, say, an education system that wasn't crudely divided along class lines. If we had a system post-education that was genuinely meritocratic, rather than massively distorted by Establishment connections.

I'd be very sorry to see a Yes vote. Even as, I hope, a good European, I feel kin to Scots, in a way I just don't to the French or Germans. But with the way Westminster politics has gone since 1979, I can absolutely understand why so many think there must be a better way, and are keen to have a go at finding one.

^^^^ That is a legendary piece of prose.
Spot on.

 

[Genau]

Not sad.
I witnessed the ruination of a country, our country's confidence but we grew stronger and that is why there is a strong Nationalist presence today.she beat the unions( a good point) then took it out on the Scots...the 14% mortgage rates, the greed is good culture she introduced.
It has been proven and well documented..
It wasn't just my country, anything north of Watford got shagged....esp if Labour represented..
The Proclaimers song containing these words "Bathgate no more. Linwood no more. Methil no more. Irvine no more..." is it in a nutshell.


Alba gu bràth

Ah, yes, Linwood. The English car company Rootes Group wanted a new factory in Coventry but the British government decided to give you a chance at failing to build cars after you'd done so well at failing to build ships. Poor old Rootes had to build its new factory hundreds of miles away from its suppliers, transport infrastructure and skill base. All because some civil servant knew best. The result was terrible build quality on the few occasions when the workforce could be bothered to drag itself into work.

Linwood wasn't the only reason for the demise of the English car company Rootes Group but it was a pretty big one. Thanks for that.

As for the OP, I hate to break the news to you but the other parties have quite a few rich kids in their senior ranks too. Balls, Harman, Ummuna, Hunt, Benn. Milliband is, of course, Marxist aristocracy which I find to be far more distasteful than the regular sort.

I grew up in a cotton town and that industry died long before 1979 and the left just pretend it never happened because they can't blame Thatcher for it. Ever hear the left banging on about cotton as well as coal? Nope, they probably don't know we ever had a cotton industry. To be fair, they're often north London born sons of Marxist intellectuals (an oxymoron if ever I heard one) so they're probably a bit vague on that whole "industry" thing anyway. They prefer to get a start in life via the vital work of writing speeches for notorious pie-fan Hattie Harman.

The fact is, cotton was in decline during the same period as coal, the 1920s onwards, but because coal staggered on into the 1980s it was all Thatcher's fault, conveniently forgetting the 1980s closure plan was formulated by Benn in the 1970s and he closed more pits than her. It's that cynical airbrushing of history that sickens me about the left.

 

[Brandane]

Scotlands independence will lead to greater relationships with england than exist now. Scotland hasn't influenced a Westminster parliament in decades. being our own country is best for all, staying together is only beneficial for the upper classes. im guessing those anti independence on this thread havent been to a food bank and seen the poverty some are living in under Tory rule. How anyone can say they are a No voter because they hate salmond, and be happy to the live under Cameron and chums truly baffles me.

What I am saying is I prefer to stay with what we know. It certainly isn't great under Westminster rule, but what has Salmond got to offer? The answer is, I don't know what he has got to offer, because he isn't telling us. Or if he is, it isn't being reported. This concerns me greatly, as he should be out there shouting from the rooftops if he has a viable plan to take us forward.
My real fear is that those food banks and poverty of which you speak, will become far more widespread in an independent Scotland. Just where are the jobs going to come from to keep us afloat? Windfarms aren't very labour intensive.

 

[Louch]

We put more into economy pot at present than we put in. Keep the greater amount and we are better off than we are now

 

[Crackle]

Scotlands independence will lead to greater relationships with england than exist now. Scotland hasn't influenced a Westminster parliament in decades. being our own country is best for all, staying together is only beneficial for the upper classes. im guessing those anti independence on this thread havent been to a food bank and seen the poverty some are living in under Tory rule. How anyone can say they are a No voter because they hate salmond, and be happy to the live under Cameron and chums truly baffles me.

Well apart from devolution that is, brought about by Scottish politicians within the labour party at Westminister, now sadly gone. without that, you wouldn't be voting on independence.

 

[Louch]

Take out Scotland's votes in last 30 years and the number of Scottish mps hasn't decided a parliament.