Non-cyclists views on cycle paths/lanes

[atomheartfather]

No need to shout, you can just read back and see that my point of view is quite clear. It is all of them.
None of them need changing at all. We just need to alter the collective mindset which prioritizes the needs of the fastest, most aggressive, and dangerous road users. Instead we need to protect the most vulnerable.
All it requires is for our law enforcement system to adopt a robust approach to discouraging poor road behaviors.

Not shouting, just asking for a second time.

I agree, we need to change the collective mindset. But our thinking does not exist in isolation. The very reason we have the kind of behaviour that is so common in the UK is because road design reinforces it. Once you go down the road (pun unintended) of protecting the most vulnerable, road design naturally follows. Otherwise, as most local authorities involved in the Cycle Demonstration Towns project have shown, it is all just PR and marketing. How can an 8 year old cycle along a fast, busy road? Do you really imagine that, with current infrastructure, motorists can be "tamed" enough? Taming involves not giving motorists the chance in the first place, by removing opportunities for dangerous driving in contexts involving pedestrians and cyclists. And that means re-design.

 

[Linford]

[QUOTE 2369172, member: 45"]That's not true Adrian.

We can be both. We can retain the right to ride on the road, but choose not to if it's more appropriate for us not.

It's a fuss about nothing really. Shadow-boxing.[/quote]


You mean wanting ones cake and eating it ?

Cycle lanes should be scrapped. They encourage a mindset that cycles should be there and nowhere else on the road network. This encourages the 'roads are for cars and no one else' mindest as stated in the OP..

Your attitude to this is a self defeating one.

 

[Dan B]

Do you really imagine that, with current infrastructure, motorists can be "tamed" enough? Taming involves not giving motorists the chance in the first place, by removing opportunities for dangerous driving in contexts involving pedestrians and cyclists. And that means re-design.

Or it means changing to a "presumed liability" system, or both, or some other combination involving yet other factors which are not presently considered. We need someone to reframe the so-called "war on motorists" as a "war on crap drivers", that'd be a good place to start.

 

[Boris Bajic]

We are traffic.

You bloody well are if you get in front of my car and I need to be somewwhere!

(Sorry, which site is this? I was looking for Pimp My Mazda or similar)

 

[Richard Mann]

One of the few (only?) places that has had success with taming traffic is Oxford. And it's not a coincidence that it has the highest levels of (on road, painted) bike lanes in the country.

If Adrian or anyone else has another demonstrable and effective method of taming drivers, I'd be glad to hear.

 

[GrasB]

This post comes under the heading "campaigning". So what do we "campaign" for here? Our personal, selfish right to do what we personally and selfishly want for ourselves? Or for more cyclists? I think this choice lies behind the cycle lane debate more than any other.

As for the "on the road/on cycle path" dichotomy, this kind of misses the key point - what sort of road? Residential streets safe for kids to play on, or "corridors of certainty" for fast motorised traffic? Good cycling infrastructure is simply "roads built for cycling".

I want a strategy for campaigning for cyclists (& pedestrians, etc.) to be allowed to exercise their legal right to use public highway without abuse or assault (be it physical contact or threatening). It is also worth mentioing those people who are abusing & assaulting road users who have a right to be on the roads are road users who are there by licensed privilege.

 

[4F]

If Adrian or anyone else has another demonstrable and effective method of taming drivers, I'd be glad to hear.

This should do it

 

[Linford]

One of the few (only?) places that has had success with taming traffic is Oxford. And it's not a coincidence that it has the highest levels of (on road, painted) bike lanes in the country.

If Adrian or anyone else has another demonstrable and effective method of taming drivers, I'd be glad to hear.

Oxford has done this by effectively banning cars from the city centre, and sticking in bus lanes everywhere else though. Fine if you live there....crap if you are a visitor with a limited amount of time. that is probably why I've not visited the centre 15 years despite passing the city on the A40 at least half a dozen times a year in that time.

 

[Boris Bajic]

I am a keen cyclist and the parent of keen cyclists.

I do not see the merit in cycle lanes or ASLs as they are built and used in the UK. I love the ones they have in parts of continental North Europe, but we just seem to treat them as a painting lesson.

1. They often seem to sit outside any wider urban-transport strategy.
2. Their presence and correct use are not widely advertised, so they just become more stripes on the road.
3. Some (not bright) motorists can assume that cyclists MUST use lanes where present, so it can get a bit shouty.
4. One does not see their abuse being policed. It might happen, but I haven't seen it.
5. In some cases they seem to have been painted on surfaces or across kerbs which seem inapprpriate for the types of bicycles used.

I'd be jolly happy if the sun burnt them all off the tarmac with tomorrow's frost.

I'm not sure most people would notice the difference.

 

[Linford]

ASLs are a good way of promoting confrontation where there wasn't before. They give a sense of indignancy to the motorists who have to pass the same riders over and over again (which encourages them to take needless risks) , and they encourage cyclists to filter up the inside of vehicles whether these are either moving off at that time or turning left across their path.

It is all just dumbing down in the name of 'doing something', and discouraging excellence in the standards of those who use the roads...be that as cyclists or drivers

 

[mcshroom]

If people want a bit of a history lesson, we've been going round in circles on this issue since before World War 2
http://www.roadswerenotbuiltforcars.com/alnessreport/

Funnily enough exactly the same arguments are being put forward as then, and the standards of facilities are and always have been terrible.

 

[mcshroom]

One of the few (only?) places that has had success with taming traffic is Oxford. And it's not a coincidence that it has the highest levels of (on road, painted) bike lanes in the country.

Oxford has some of the most restricted roads in a city centre that I have ever come across. As for the carriageway painted cycle lanes, when Warrington Cycle Campaign looked into them they founf that they encouraged drivers to pass closer and less safely than on identical roads where the paint had not been applied: -
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/report/cycle-lanes.pdf

A study of the same Campaign's 'Cycle Facility of the Month' also gives a good reason why surrendering the right to use all or part of perfectly adequate road network should IMHO be avoided.

Then there is the general lack of upkeep, or gritting, and in many cases with off road provision the fears for personal safety at night among other reasons against.

 

[theclaud]

Oxford has done this by effectively banning cars from the city centre, and sticking in bus lanes everywhere else though. Fine if you live there....crap if you are a visitor with a limited amount of time. that is probably why I've not visited the centre 15 years despite passing the city on the A40 at least half a dozen times a year in that time.

They're gutted about this, apparently...

 

[theclaud]

[QUOTE 2372278, member: 45"]Have a think about the bit you wrote which is now in bold. A proper think.........[/quote]

And in other news...

 

[Richard Mann]

As for the carriageway painted cycle lanes, when Warrington Cycle Campaign looked into them they founf that they encouraged drivers to pass closer and less safely than on identical roads where the paint had not been applied: -
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/report/cycle-lanes.pdf

The two roads were identical in every way except that one is a 30mph road and the other a 40mph road. That particular report is only evidence of Pete's prejudices...