On the dangers of filtering (part 2)...

[Ningishzidda]

Forget the law.
Did you put the motorist in hospital????

 

[BSRU]

[QUOTE 2492337, member: 45"]...and a car approaching the junction?....

I have asked why we think the law is there for motor vehicles. The reason for it may apply to bicycles regardless of whether the law does.[/quote]
The car is stationary not approaching the junction, the driver decides to use the opposite lane in order to overtake the vehicle in front in order to turn into the junction.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

I

The only way to turn a bike without countersteer is to physically lean into the corner with your upper body & pull the bike into the lean that way. That's fine for fairly smooth turning but for short sharp turns it genrally leave you on the deck as you'll tend to overshoot & not balence the bike properly. You will counter steer even if you're unaware of it.

A modern bike will turn surprisingly quickly on a twitch of the bars without a lot of lean or counter steer and without you ending up on the deck,

 

[BSRU]

[QUOTE 2492488, member: 45"]Counter steering is for motor bikers. It's only relevant to cyclists wanting to sound clever and reality is a negligible phenomenon for pedal cycles.[/quote]
Counter steering as I was taught is to allow motor bikes to take sweeping bends.

 

[gaz]

Forget the law.
Did you put the motorist in hospital????

Nah, he was a nice guy (when he finally got out of the car and came to talk to me). A very relaxed conversation, I explained to him what he had to go and do (report this) and what I was going to do and what I expected the outcome to be. I was correct in that expectation so I'm sure the driver is happy to have a minor bump in his wing and no police action or need for the insurance companies to get involved.

 

[BSRU]

[QUOTE 2492527, member: 45"]Sorry, I confused you with the wrong words.

The HC states that you should not overtake a vehicle approaching or stationary at a crossing.[/quote]
The legislation states a motorised vehicle cannot overtake another motorised vehicle in the "zig-zag' area, it does not apply to cyclists except in the situation I posted earlier.
The HC should never be used as a definitive guide to the laws of the road, it is a basic précis of government legislation.

 

[GrasB]

A modern bike will turn surprisingly quickly on a twitch of the bars without a lot of lean or counter steer and without you ending up on the deck, does not adhere to the laws of physics

Fixed your post to represent reality as you see it.
Lean & counter steer are absolute requirements for turning a single track vehicle. The physics for this is well set & you can easily calculate the CoD offset required for any turn based on it's radius & your speed. By moving your centre of gravity about you can vary the amount of lean the bike needs a bit but it's not massive amounts.

Without some counter steer your mass will try to carry on in a straight line while the wheels of the bike will try to make the turn directed. this will lead your body to lean out of the turn & fall off towards the outside of the turn. This minor amount of counter steer will happen any time you try to turn a bike & because it's quite small it's instinctive. However if you ride through a puddle & then do a tight turn you'll see a surprisingly large amount of front wheel movement for what you'd consider non-existent counter steering.

[QUOTE 2492488, member: 45"]Counter steering is for motor bikers. It's only relevant to cyclists wanting to sound clever and reality is a negligible phenomenon for pedal cycles.[/quote]
It's not negligible, rather instinctual. The handle bar movements are a minor extension of the basic balancing in a straight line instincts developed when learning how to ride a bike.

Counter steering as I was taught is to allow motor bikes to take sweeping bends.

Because of the non-dynamic mass in motorbikes you have to be taught to use counter steer as the motions required are much larger than your instincts will give. Counter steer becomes more important in higher speed sweeping corners because this is where it's hardest to change a motorbikes line.

Comeing back to pedal cycles on my long tiller low racer (my arms are tucked into my sides with the grips being above my chest but the steerer tube is between my knees, and I've got a very open body position for aero reasons) you realise how much counter steer you are actually need as the motion isn't a subtle flick of the handle bars, which is a small forward/back motion on an upright, it's a fairly large sideways motion. If you look at the 'easy' & 'hard' to learn recumbent bikes you'll see that the easier ones tend to have smaller 'bar movement, or even bike aping handle bar/steerer relationships, compared to the harder to ride bikes. Once learned the balancing is fairly easy.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

Fixed your post to represent reality as you see it.
Lean & counter steer are absolute requirements for turning a single track vehicle. The physics for this is well set & you can easily calculate the CoD offset required for any turn based on it's radius & your speed. By moving your centre of gravity about you can vary the amount of lean the bike needs a bit but it's not massive amounts.

Lovely 60 miler over to Rosliston

I used the ride to observe and experiment, the first thing I noticed is that I don't countersteer, I also had the bike turning nicely by turning the bars or turning the bars and leaning, if I twitch the bars the bike turns, climbing Breach oak lane I had the bike zig zagging nicely by twitching the bars left and right, all this I'm sure is within your beloved law of physics, I'm a simple warehouseman not a scientist so my knowledge of the laws of physics is sketchy, on the bike I just enjoy riding it, I dont go to much into why it works, it works thats enough for me.

 

[Andrew_P]

The trouble with being further out is that you are putting yourself in the blind spot of a mirror check, I would like to think most drivers check the mirror for motorcyclists so would rather be in their field of vision. I hate filtering, barely bother at lights these days and most of my aggro with drivers is when I filter back in as the traffic pulls off.

 

[Deleted member 1258]

The trouble with being further out is that you are putting yourself in the blind spot of a mirror check, I would like to think most drivers check the mirror for motorcyclists so would rather be in their field of vision. I hate filtering, barely bother at lights these days and most of my aggro with drivers is when I filter back in as the traffic pulls off.

I'm well aware of this problem, you can't even be sure they will use their mirrors, I tend to sit in the traffic queue in primary most of the time these days, I will only filter if the queue is very long and only at very low speeds.

 

[DiddlyDodds]

Am I wrong , but I am sure its illegal to over take on zig zag lines leading up to a crossing

 

[gaz]

Am I wrong , but I am sure its illegal to over take on zig zag lines leading up to a crossing

You're wrong. read the first post.

 

[Ningishzidda]

Its only illegal if you are operating your vehicle without due care, in a dangerous manner or being inconsiderate to other road users or pedestrians.
If the video evidence shows the cyclist was riding 'without due care', 'in a dangerous manner' and being 'inconsiderate' by overtaking a stationary line of cars on approach to a zebra crossing, then let justice be served.

 

[BSRU]

Its only illegal if you are operating your vehicle without due care, in a dangerous manner or being inconsiderate to other road users or pedestrians.
If the video evidence shows the cyclist was riding 'without due care', 'in a dangerous manner' and being 'inconsiderate' by overtaking a stationary line of cars on approach to a zebra crossing, then let justice be served.

Need to read earlier posts as this has already been discussed in some detail

 

[Ningishzidda]

As the cyclist was NOT being any of the three, the same questions should be asked of the motorist.
'Without due care' applies.