On-the-spot fines for careless driving!!

[PBancroft]

I've noticed that a lot of cars overtake me too close then pull out after they have passsed me!

I think the drivers are half asleep, distracted by mobile phones, passengers talking (whatever) and realise at the last moment that there is a cyclist ahead of them. By the time they react it is too late. Watch out for it and you'll see what I mean!

I think thats an angles thing. They start to overtake right by your rear wheel and continue to overtake for the next twenty feet after they've passed you, where they begin the trajectory back in.

 

[Lazy-Commuter]

I think thats an angles thing. They start to overtake right by your rear wheel and continue to overtake for the next twenty feet after they've passed you, where they begin the trajectory back in.

Think that's it .. I've often wondered if it's poor speed judgement; they're catching up quicker than they think and so start to turn a bit too late.

 

[wesa]

ColinJ, Kaipaith
I have noticed this, I put it down to a lack of awareness of how much to turn the steering wheel to get the car where it should be; or a lack of ability to judge the differential speed and therefore the position of the cyclist as the car is alongside.

I like Magnatom’s suggestion of installing distance measuring kit; in the past I have thought about building a prototype using instruments that I have (or used to have) access to at work, unfortunately they were industrial instruments and would have added significantly to the weight of the (already heavy) bike.

I just want cyclists to be taken seriously, I am fed up with being treated like s**t on the roads by ignorant drivers. If the Police will enforce this then good luck!

 

[magnatom]

Very very hard to enforce and how do you define a motorist that drives to close to cyclists?

Definition: a taxi driver or white van driver

 

[magnatom]

I like Magnatom’s suggestion of installing distance measuring kit; in the past I have thought about building a prototype using instruments that I have (or used to have) access to at work, unfortunately they were industrial instruments and would have added significantly to the weight of the (already heavy) bike.

Prettyboytim (not round these parts much these days) built a prototype that apparently worked. I'm not sure if he took it any further though...

 

[col]

ColinJ, Kaipaith
I have noticed this, I put it down to a lack of awareness of how much to turn the steering wheel to get the car where it should be; or a lack of ability to judge the differential speed and therefore the position of the cyclist as the car is alongside.

I like Magnatom’s suggestion of installing distance measuring kit; in the past I have thought about building a prototype using instruments that I have (or used to have) access to at work, unfortunately they were industrial instruments and would have added significantly to the weight of the (already heavy) bike.

I just want cyclists to be taken seriously, I am fed up with being treated like s**t on the roads by ignorant drivers. If the Police will enforce this then good luck!

Though I can see the logic in a distance measuring device to stop or fine too close passes, how do you set a given distance that would be the fine point? some like half a lane in case they fall off, others dont require as far to feel safe. What would be the criterea for the distance? And if the distance was set at lets say for example three feet, how would that effect traffic flow on long narrow roads where oncoming traffic stops passes for a long time, or even roads with parked cars lining both sides? It seems problematic?

 

[Bollo]

Though I can see the logic in a distance measuring device to stop or fine too close passes, how do you set a given distance that would be the fine point? some like half a lane in case they fall off, others dont require as far to feel safe. What would be the criterea for the distance? And if the distance was set at lets say for example three feet, how would that effect traffic flow on long narrow roads where oncoming traffic stops passes for a long time, or even roads with parked cars lining both sides? It seems problematic?

Damn my eyes if I don't rather agree with col. Here are some more tricky legal scenarios....

A cyclist is riding along in a narrow cycle lane painted on the road. A car passes closer than the minimum distance, but remains on the 'car' side of the line. Is the driver committing an offence or not?

Another one - a cyclist starts to filter between lanes in stationary traffic but then the traffic starts to move, passing the cyclist closer than the legal limit. Who's to blame?

I'm not saying its totally wrong, but a fixed minimum distance for passing isn't enforceable and most likely would never be enforced. The existing definitions for careless and dangerous driving should cover the eventualities when close passes do pose a threat but............they're rarely enforced.

 

[Aperitif]

Fair points Bollo - the difficulty for me is that both objects move! Who is going to 'prove' that a car comes too close...maybe it is just the cyclist trying to be awkward and cycling 'up to' the vehicle. This proposed law definitely is an ass.
Col wins!

 

[Tynan]

anyone remember driving while on a mobile being an offence?

I've seen coppers shouting repeatedly at drivers to get off the phone and still not book them

this is yet more happy spin that sounds god and does nothing

 

[magnatom]

I agree bollo that fixed distances are not the answer. However, the cyclist/police man, would press a button to indicate a dangerous overtake, then when back at the station the footage could be viewed and taking into account the video footage and the distance measurements a decision could be made to fine or not. This would all depend on road conditions speeds etc. The decision would be the same if a police officer didn't have the gizmos, except if questioned there would be evidence.

This would also save police time, in that you wouldn't have to stop the driver at the time, the fine could be sent in the same way that a speed camera fine is.

Of course there would be practicalities etc to consider, but the point of such a system would be to reinforce the message that close passes are not acceptable, and the police take it seriously enough to do something about it.

Of course, the police won't feel strongly enough to do something about it.....

 

[wesa]

Though I can see the logic in a distance measuring device to stop or fine too close passes, how do you set a given distance that would be the fine point? some like half a lane in case they fall off, others dont require as far to feel safe. What would be the criterea for the distance? And if the distance was set at lets say for example three feet, how would that effect traffic flow on long narrow roads where oncoming traffic stops passes for a long time, or even roads with parked cars lining both sides? It seems problematic?

All valid points. My thinking for this was just to put some figures to 'close'. there are many times I have claimed 'the car was within 6 inches' but it was probably a lot further away (except the van that left a mark on my offside pannier or the guy who lost a wing mirror - they were definatly 'close'!)
I think my judgement of 'close' varies depending on the road and traffic.

I have wondered what cars would do if I strapped a lump of 4×2 to the back of my bike to make it the same width as a car, damage their car by squeezing through or wait? (I know there are other threads on this subject).

Going OT slightly I have started comparing my commutes and leisure rides in terms of MPM (muppets per mile), my commute is usualy between 0.5 and 1, a Sunday morning leisure ride is usualy 0.1 - 0.5. What makes a muppet is entirley subjective but I am sure I get of lightly compared to most!

 

[thomas]

What would be the criterea for the distance? And if the distance was set at lets say for example three feet, how would that effect traffic flow on long narrow roads where oncoming traffic stops passes for a long time, or even roads with parked cars lining both sides? It seems problematic?

On my commute, the road is narrow and the outside lane, is always solid, slowly moving traffic without gaps to overtake. I don't particularly like getting overtaken along there but do accept that it will happen and don't fuss too much, unless the driver intentionally didn't choose a safer spot, went past too fast, etc. I don't sit in the middle of the lane, but far enough out that I've got some space to escape to and to put off any vans and large vehicles from trying (there just isn't room for them).

I suppose legally though, a car width is the recommended amount so no overtakes should be made along this road (then you can get into arguments about if I should pull over) so forcing people to overtake at the legally recommended distance shouldn't be problematic (slow traffic is better than deaths).

Fair points Bollo - the difficulty for me is that both objects move! Who is going to 'prove' that a car comes too close...maybe it is just the cyclist trying to be awkward and cycling 'up to' the vehicle. This proposed law definitely is an ass.
Col wins!

I think the cyclist would need a camera to show the situation, not just the distance between them and some parked car.


I definitely like the idea of making it easy to fine and give points to people who overtake too close and agree that there could be problems defining dangerous or too close. I wouldn't say I expect the person to use the other lane, but actually move out into the other lane a reasonable amount. The further the better though.

 

[Bollo]

I think my main point was that the existing laws should be good enough, its just that there isn't the political or police will to enforce them. Maybe reducing paperwork will make plod a little more willing to take action, but any new laws will have to be robust enough to minimise challenges to the fixed penalty notices on technicalities.

 

[Arch]

On the subject of what's too close... Doesn't the Highway Code say "Give a ccyclist as much room as a small car"? I've always felt that was open to interpretation - as much room as you would leave when overtaking a small car, or as much room as if they were a small car? I think the two are not exactly the same - assuming a cyclist is the width of an old Mini parked at the side of the road and passing at the point represented by the side of that Mini is still quite close, esp if the cyclist is already in primary. Passing a cyclist as if they were a Mini driving down the road means properly crossing to the other lane/side of the road. No wonder the divvy ones can't work it out.

No legislation is any good without detection and enforcement. Presumably that's why people get uppity about speed cameras, because they allow the automation of both, and hence a better result. I hear that they are also planning to cut speed limits in a lot of places - introduce more 20 zones, and cut some rural roads to 50. Apparently motoring organisations are saying "well, that's sort of ok, but driver training is the key". So why is driver training apparently so shoot? Although I gather they intend to tackle that too, and in ways I think might be good - like a pre-licence training at school scheme. Trouble is, those kids who opt to take it are a self selecting group - they see the merit in good training. Those who don't care, still don't care....

 

[rnscotch]

This says it all really..

A spokesman for The Association of Chief Police Officers said:

“We see it as a way of reducing the time involved in processing cases. We believe strongly in education and, where appropriate, would make use of driver-improvement schemes as an alternative to fines and penalty points.”