Opinions please! - Yet another German expedition

[TwoInTow]

OK, some of you will remember how my planned family cycle tour last year fell through, and I'm re-planning it all now for July 2011.

The plan is to do Donaueschingen - Passau of the Danube Bike Trail. I'm set on doing something as non-challenging as this as my 8 year old will be on her own bike for the first time (she was on the tandem last time) and because my mother is also coming. She is not a regular cyclist, is in her early 70s and also has a dodgy foot after several operations on it in the last few years. So 600Km largely downhill is definitely what I want. Besides, I have the Bikeline maps and everything after my failed attempt last year!

Anyway, last time I was not keen on flying because it was our first tour and I had enough new things to learn, but the trains (Eurostar and then French and German trains) were quite expensive. (All the more money I lost when it fell through... ) But since then I've read a lot of experiences on here about how easy flying with bikes can be, so I've been investigating it and it does seem easier.

(By the way, I looked at ferry travel, but we have no easy way of getting 4 bikes plus all the kit to Harwich - I'd have to hire a van, and then leave it there for two weeks or something... seems expensive. And the van can't carry all the passengers either, so we'd also have to drive our car or something.)

So what do you think of this plan?

1. Fly Southampton - Frankfurt with Flybe. I'm waiting to hear back from the airline, but has anyone flown with Flybe? And what are the chances of getting four bicycles onto the same plane? Southampton is close to our house (9 mins on the train), and being a small airport is easy to use. They don't guarantee the bikes - it's 'space permitting', so I wonder if anyone has experience with this? I plan to get bike boxes from the LBS and dump them at the airport. The fares seem pretty good: £380 for all four of us, return.

2. Trains from Frankfurt airport to Donaueschingen. (We'll stop one night in Frankfurt near the Hauptbahnhof, because the flight lands in the evening, and we'll get going again in the morning.) I've checked and the whole family can get tickets for 49 Euro(!!) plus 36 Euro for the bikes. Which seems amazing value. I'm assuming this is because I'm looking at this so far ahead of time.

3. Cycle to Passau, camping on the way. At least I have all the kit this time!

4. Train from Passau to Frankfurt airport. I can do this with just 2 changes, and they seem to allow enough time. Again it's either 49 or 59 Euro for the whole family plus 36 for the bikes.

5. Buy bike boxes from the airport (they say they have them), and fly Frankfurt-Southampton. Then short train ride back home.

And on top of that, I will need to hire a bike for my mother for Donaueschingen - Passau. Can anyone recommend a good company? We won't be doing the whole luggage transfer thing - we just need the bike, but it should have at least a rear rack so she can carry some things.

What do you think?

 

[snorri]

(By the way, I looked at ferry travel, but we have no easy way of getting 4 bikes plus all the kit to Harwich - I'd have to hire a van, and then leave it there for two weeks or something... seems expensive. And the van can't carry all the passengers either, so we'd also have to drive our car or something.)

, I'm surprised you found the ferry problematical, there is a good rail service out from London Liverpool Street to Manningtree where you change for Harwich ferry terminal. Although if time permits, it's a pleasant cycle run from Manningtree. I used the ferry last summer en route to Donauseschingen.

 

[TwoInTow]

, I'm surprised you found the ferry problematical, there is a good rail service out from London Liverpool Street to Manningtree where you change for Harwich ferry terminal. Although if time permits, it's a pleasant cycle run from Manningtree. I used the ferry last summer en route to Donauseschingen.

Well, I'm prepared to be convinced, and your post has made me go and check...

We would have to catch the train into London and then out again to Harwich. Once in London we need to get from Waterloo to Liverpool Street which will be difficult - not too keen on the children having to cycle London streets (8 and 10 years old). Even if we manage that, the train to Harwich is £140 return for the 4 of us (even after using our Rail Card), and involves 3 changes each way. Ferry is £192 return for 4. I've just checked the Dutch/German trainfares and they are 220 Euros from Hoek van Holland to Donaueschingen and 260 Euros back from Passau (for 4). Each way, there seems to be 4-6 changes.

Unless I'm missing something, it seems more expensive and harder because of the many changes... OTOH I'm not convinced that I'm not missing something!!

 

[Brains]

Another option would be to look at the European Bike Express

Get on the train to Waterloo and from there to Gravesend, pick up the bus, with all your bikes and camping gear, and get dropped off in mid France (they recommend a stop for the Danube route) train to Donaueschingen.

It may be more expensive than the flight option, but I'm guessing a whole lot less hassle than trying to get 5 people, 5 bikes, and 15 panniers through airports

Also renting a bike in Donaueschingen, I'm sure it's possible, however
* You have to return there to return th bike
* Rental bikes need to be set up for the rider, which can take several days of minor tinkering before you get the fit 'right'
* With two kids and 3 adults on a camping trip I'm afraid your Mum will be doing a lot more than "carry some things"
German bikes tend to come with racks as standard, she will be loaded.

It may be the best option would be to acquire the bike in the UK if you can

As an aside, driving all or part of the way even in a small car should be possible with the bikes.

We transported about 15 bikes on the roof of a landrover using conventional roof bars (Ladder bars)
We simply got a thick sheet of plywood, turned the bikes upside down, put them on the sheet of plywood and then drilled holes each side of of each hand grip and saddle, and then held the bikes in place with cable ties, the sheet of plywood was held to the roof bars the same way

 

[Ticktockmy]

So what do you think of this plan?

1. Fly Southampton - Frankfurt with Flybe. I'm waiting to hear back from the airline, but has anyone flown with Flybe? And what are the chances of getting four bicycles onto the same plane? Southampton is close to our house (9 mins on the train), and being a small airport is easy to use. They don't guarantee the bikes - it's 'space permitting', so I wonder if anyone has experience with this? I plan to get bike boxes from the LBS and dump them at the airport. The fares seem pretty good: £380 for all four of us, return.

Flybe,use BAE 146's not much hold room, Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 a little more hold room, and recently aquired some Embraer 195, woukld guess it has the same size holds as the latest version of the 737 800. None of these plane s have very much hold space.

I think you would have to talk to the ground handling company that used by Flybe, as they are the ones who have to cram all the luggage in the holds. I think its servisair at Southampton.I would give them a ring, ask for luggage handling and see what they say, you might find that they happy with the bike unboxed, just turn the handle bars, remove the pedals and deflatye the tyres a little, just like the old days and wrap some bubble wrap around the derailleur,s

 

[snorri]

Well, I'm prepared to be convinced, and your post has made me go and check...

Agreed, having your two youngsters cycling across London is a no no. Although I think there may be only one train change , at Manningtree, between Liverpool Street and Harwich.
Anyway, I admire your courage in organising this venture with your wide age range travel companions.
I hope you are aware it is not all downhill from Donaueschingen, the route wanders along hill sides above river level in places, and this involves some steepish climbs.
I spent a night here www.hotel-linde-ds.de in Donaueschingen, very comfortable, good cycle parking. Most nights I was on camp sites but at Passau, The Rotel Inn provides cheap and cheerful accommodation with the smallest bedrooms I have encountered anywhere!

 

[TwoInTow]

Anyway, I admire your courage in organising this venture with your wide age range travel companions.

Eek! Don't praise my courage!! I'm strenuously trying to avoid anything requiring courage...

Having checked out the remaining suggestions, it still seems to me that my flying plan is by far the easiest because it doesn't involve changing trains much (and is cheaper). Ticktock - thanks for that suggestion. I'll see if I can talk to baggage handling and see what they say. Maybe flying half the group out on consecutive days and spending an extra 24 hours in Frankfurt will be the ticket, to spread the load or something.

Anyway, snorri, what exactly do you mean by 'steep climbs'?!? This is the elevation map (as you know):



Are there really steep climbs in there? I'm getting palpitations... Do I need to re-think this? I really have been counting on this being as close to flat as you can get...

(Thanks for the hotel recommendations, too.)

 

[snorri]

Anyway, snorri, what exactly do you mean by 'steep climbs'?!?

These undulations on the chart between Fridlingen and Sigmaringen are, if I remember right, where the pathway leaves the river side. I didn't mean the climbs were comparable with the Alps or anything like it, but that section of the Passau Radweg was hillier than I remembered encountering on other riverside routes. I don't think you need worry, just allow a little more time for that section.
I suggest you take a look at the Crazy Guy on a Bike (CGOAB) website where you will find accounts of other cyclists experiences on the Passau Radweg, don't let me worry you!

Here is one such account
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=RrzKj&page_id=143152&v=Tc

 

[tapan]

I cycle from Donaueschingen to Budapest ( and back in 2005 and camped all the way apart from a couple of nights in a JungendHeberge ( Youth hostel) in Ulm on my way back!

I actualloy went by Bike Express to Strasbourg -- (but they don't do that run any more) Then train to Donaueschingen ( with one change at the border) where I arrived at about 1300 hrs. I then cycled -- easy cycling about 84 kms that first day and stopped in a small but good camp site at Hausen ( map 5 in your book). I do remember on my second day that as I approached Sigmaringen I left the Radweg because I had been warned of a steep route ( area of Inzigkofen ( map 6) and followed the main road to Sigmaringen

There was one other place in this section I remember ( but can't remeber where!) where I had to dismount and push but otherwise the route is easy cycling and extremely enjoyable.

At that time I was carrying 4 panniers and a tent ( a Vango Microlite) and I cycled about 80 kms each day sometimes less and sometimes more.

I do remeber one day I did about 160 kms from Passau to beyond Linz but it was a fabulous day and I was cycling right by the river most of the way with a slight following wind.! The next day I only did 30 kms


Don't worry about steep climbs, There are a couple of short sharp hills on the first couple of days from Donaueschingen ( see above) but the radweg which follows the infant Danube is a good surface an i think the best part of the wholle Danube trip

I did meet a German "dad" one day in Munderkingen and he was travelling with his 2 young sons aged 7 and 5, Dad was towing a "baby" trailer full of the caamping gear and Liam, the 7 year old had a small load on his rear rack, Kim the 5 year old cycled unloaded. They travelled about 30 kms every day and managed very well indeed.

I think thay you will cope very easily! If you can mange a bit of german it helps a lot!
I still think this is a possible way to get to donaueschingeg and Bike Express drops you in Nancy where you can get a train to Strasbourg and the German border and then on to Donaueschingen. Ub France bike travel free at w/e's and in Germay and Austria there are very good offers for group travel with bikes ( btw they still don't like traailers but if the wheels can vbe taken off -- eg Carry Freedom -- there is no problem.

What ever you decide I think that you will find the trip very enjoyable and out here every one and their mothersd uncle travel by bike. There was one day in Autria i think where i was marginally of track ( a bit lost) and I asked an elderly lady on here bike for advice --- she was 92 -- a said -- "follow me" and i had difficulty in keeping up with her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A final note. I always travel solo -- it means that I have to speak the language -- and I do have fluent German and pretty god French -- but I have always found that even if you struggle a bit with any language then the locals will always appreciate and be much more welcoming it you try to speak -- even please and thank you and "ich sprechen keine deutsch" will bring smiles and help. There is always a tendency when travelling with other to talk all day in English

On another trip down the Rhein I was hopelessly lost in Krefeld and asked a man by his house for directions. He told me to wait a couple of minutes and then reappeared with his bike and took me a good 5 kms out of the city andback on route.

I think that on every trip I have done i have been help unexpectedly by all sorts of people -- and it is the people that form the large part of my memories of my tours rather than places.

Sorry if that is a bit long!!!!!!!!!! I do tend to rabbit on a bit! Feel free to ask me about anything. And just have a great holiday

Sorry for typos!

 

[Brains]

We did Regensburg to Vienna a few years back - there are no hills at all.

As for your transportation issues - suggest flying is the last option to look at, Train/ferry/train or Train/European Bike Express/Train would be my first and second choice, car a third choice and only then to look at the train/plane/train option

 

[TwoInTow]

Thanks for the reassurance about the route... Am feeling more secure now! I remember there's a bit in the guidebook where it says that part of the route gets hilly, so consider taking a ferry for about 5Km instead - perhaps that's what snorri was remembering? Anyway, we have plenty of time, and I am quite happy to jump on a train at any point if we feel we need to make up some miles. (Oh, and I speak German, Tapan, so no worries there!)

Now, I've checked out every single option that has been put forward, but everything so far involves many, many train changes. For instance, taking the ferry would not only be 3 changes of train to get to Harwich, but anything from 4 to 8 changes to get from Hook of Holland to the startpoint. The ferry and trains would take about 30+ hours of travelling - and if I try to do the ferry overnight, I have to book a cabin etc etc. It's going to be 3-5 times the price of going by plane.

The same goes, unfortunately, for the Bike Express. It's 3 train changes for us just to get to the pick-up point. If we get off at Thionville or Nancy it's at least 4 changes to Donaueschingen... And it's slower and more expensive. As someone said above, with so many bikes and people, any route is daunting; and the children do find travelling tiring, especially if it's overnight. I think it would be different if it were 5 active adults, each of which can be entirely responsible for their own kit. But really, it's 2 active adults, another helpful but less active one, and 2 willing kids.

If only it weren't so hard to get to the starting point!!

I have had one idea, though... Instead of taking our single bikes, we can pack up our tandem into a case, which then goes on board normally. So if I can hire a bike for my mum, then it's only 2 kids' bike which need to go onto the plane... which is much more feasible, I hope. Since we would be going through Frankfurt in either direction, the tandem case can be left there for our return.

I'm starting to just think aloud here... but it has been really helpful to have everyone's feedback. It makes me more sure that I'm not missing anything. No doubt I'll be starting a thread soon about packing light, and then I can rely on Willem to have done all the research for me!!

 

[Andy in Sig]

Donaueschingen to Sigmaringen is one of my Sunday routes. The "steep climbs" are a handful of spurs where the hills run down to the river and they are all under a hundred yards long. You'll be in the company of lots of other people if you get off and push up them. I reckon you would need 2-3 days for that bit of the route depending on how capable your mother/the eight year old are. There's nothing wrong with that as it is such a beautiful stretch that it would be a crime to zip through it in one day if it is your first visit.

After Sigmaringen it gets a lot flatter until the bit between Munderkingen and Ehingen. Personally I always avoid Ehingen (I just go through Burg and pick up the route again on the far side of that village) as it involves a totally pointless climb plus a boring road into the town. If you want any specific info for the stretch Donaueschingen to Ulm, let me know. You'll definitely enjoy it.

 

[TwoInTow]

The "steep climbs" are a handful of spurs where the hills run down to the river and they are all under a hundred yards long. You'll be in the company of lots of other people if you get off and push up them.

Even better! I'm thinking 50-60Km per day should be do-able on average, and am expecting less than that at the beginning and on that bumpy stretch, but perhaps a bit more than that towards the end as it gets flatter and we get fitter. I'm going to take the little one on her first tour in April - at least, the first on her own bike - which should let me gauge it better. And I'll probably put my mother on the tandem with my husband, so they'll even out a bit.

Is 'Burg' = 'Berg' (as it is on my Bikeline map)? Looks like it... I'm marking your suggestion on my map now. I would welcome any tips you have about anything, really. Off the top of my head, things like:
- Are there campsites not on the Bikeline maps? Where's the best place to research them beforehand? Can't have too many back-up plans with small children!
- Is the tourist office in each town a place where you can find out about camping sites and maybe book ahead for that night?
- What kind of shop in Germany would sell methylated spirits for our Trangia? Wie heisst 'meths' auf Deutsch?
- Are there other areas of the route where you would recommend a deviation?

 

[andym]

Google Maps is a very good way to research campsites in an area before you go.

I'd have thought that most tourist offices will also have websites with information about accommodation/camping etc etc (although I'm sure it's still the case that there will be things the staff in the office know what won't be on the website).

You've probably already seen these but just in case:

http://www.donau-radweg.info/campsites-passau.html

http://www.donau-radweg.info/tourist-office-danube.html

 

[Arch]

- What kind of shop in Germany would sell methylated spirits for our Trangia? Wie heisst 'meths' auf Deutsch?

I can't find it just now, but there's a website with the words for meths, and where you'd get it, in many countries. It might be in here somewhere, perhaps in the touring tips section.

I can't offer any advice, but I hope it all goes wonderfully - I remember how you salvaged a brilliant trip last time.