People do remember things differently

[yello]

but I'm not remembering 1972, I'm remembering a memory i had in 1977... if that makes sense.

Perfect sense - remembering the last time you remembered the event, rather than remembering the event itself. I think that's what we do, at least in part.

The original memory gets 'tainted' by all the rememberings of it over the years.

 

[yello]

I'll "remember" it from now on

Exactly!

 

[figbat]

My family has always considered me to have a sharp memory, and my kids have a similar trait. Whether it is simply that older people are impressed by the memory of youths or that we were genuinely extraordinary I don't know.

There are several occasions when I was young where I remember something that was dismissed as impossible or fantasy, only to be proven right - this developed in me a slightly unhealthy

One example - I was on holiday with my family in the Canaries. We took an organised day trip on a coach, seeing the sights and stopping at various locations. A few days later we hired a car and made our own way around the island. At one point I exclaimed "oh, we were here the other day!" but I was informed most firmly that no, we never came this far south the other day. "But I remember that donkey!" says I (which, looking back, was not the best argument on an island where donkeys are, or were, quite common). I was informed that donkeys are quite common and all look the same, I was mistaken.

Then a few kilometres later (still heading south) we approached a road junction, one that we had visited on the coach tour. I knew this because we had actually stopped and got out to examine some cacti - some had been painted in bright colours which was apparently something of a highlight to the area, but also we looked at cochineal beetles on the cacti and how these were used to make red dye. Anyway, these cacti and this road junction were undeniably where we had been a few days before. I never shouted "told you so!" though, I just quietly fumed in the back seat whilst knowing glances were exchanged by other family members. That may be the first time I was ever diplomatic or restrained in my arrogance.

I'll agree though that memory is no better than perception, which is the reality we build for ourselves. Strange that memory of events is such a powerful evidence in legal cases, when it can demonstrably be so wrong. Equally, targeting incorrect recall is a powerful debunking method for memories that may have been accurate. All you need is the suggestion that a memory may be wrong to instil reasonable doubt.

 

[yello]

All you need is the suggestion that a memory may be wrong to instil reasonable doubt.

You can understand why but it does seem so... counter intuitive, I suppose. We put so much faith in our memories but we can't ever really be sure whether they are correct or not - despite our protests and assertions!

Nice story btw Which, in itself, perhaps demonstrates the point from the other perspective. Your family were certain you were wrong... based on what you might wonder? Because they didn't remember the road as you did? They didn't share the same memory?

 

[yello]

At the risk of derailing my own thread, and I really don't want to start talking about dreams but.... dreams.

Have you ever wondered how you can tell the difference between a memory and a dream? OK, dreams tend to be be a bit weird, and that can obviously be a bit of a give away, but in terms of actual representation in the brain, it seems to me that they not actually that different. I reckon you simply KNOW the difference. I could see that the division can get blurred and sometimes a dream, or memory of a dream, risks being remembered as a memory. Likewise any strong visualisation techniques.

...sorry, I think I'm trying to justify the nonsense my brother comes out with sometimes! I think he genuinely believes he's done the things he says, despite me knowing/believing that it's simply not possible - the dates don't lineup or some such.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

At the risk of derailing my own thread, and I really don't want to start talking about dreams but.... dreams.

Have you ever wondered how you can tell the difference between a memory and a dream? OK, dreams tend to be be a bit weird, and that can obviously be a bit of a give away, but in terms of actual representation in the brain, it seems to me that they not actually that different. I reckon you simply KNOW the difference. I could see that the division can get blurred and sometimes a dream, or memory of a dream, risks being remembered as a memory. Likewise any strong visualisation techniques.

...sorry, I think I'm trying to justify the nonsense my brother comes out with sometimes! I think he genuinely believes he's done the things he says, despite me knowing/believing that it's simply not possible - the dates don't lineup or some such.

Dreams are an interesting one, as on one hand the senses don't actually stop sending stimuli, even the eyes are only closed rather than turned off, so given we never actually 'see' or 'hear' anything directly and it's more what the brain interprets from the signals it receives, dreams are reality.

I think the difference is that once we go into sleep, it's the subconscious, rather than the conscious that dominates that interpretation.

 

[All uphill]

I had a colleague for many years who was known for her memory of what was said in meetings and by whom. She could relate to me what I had said about a subject three years earlier, and it would ring loud bells in my memory.

One day on a journey I asked her about her amazing memory and she told me it was sometimes useful, but mostly a curse. Other people would gradually come to agree on (and believe in) a mutually acceptable version of the past enabling them to get on with work. She could not do that and frequently found herself hung up on what had actually happened.

She said this had seriously limited her career, where consensus was more important than truth.

 

[yello]

I think the difference is that once we go into sleep, it's the subconscious, rather than the conscious that dominates that interpretation.

Yes, maybe the different processes 'label' the representation somehow. Maybe that's how we know the difference.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Yes, maybe the different processes 'label' the representation somehow. Maybe that's how we know the difference.

There are a few factors that change when we sleep, for example, the body protects us by limiting our ability to move. This sometimes doesn't work enough, so people sleep walk, or it works too much and people 'suffer' sleep paralysis, which has been linked to the sensation of alien abduction and apportions.

I'm sure there'll be other aspects of bodily functions, such as passing motions or water that are also controlled by the same thing that tells us we're asleep.

 

[yello]

She could not do that and frequently found herself hung up on what had actually happened.

I don't think I could ever assert something had "actually happened", not knowing how wrong memory can be, particularly on specifics.

Once you acknowledge the possibility of fallibility, it tends to eat away at you (well, me anyway!)

 

[classic33]

At the risk of derailing my own thread, and I really don't want to start talking about dreams but.... dreams.

Have you ever wondered how you can tell the difference between a memory and a dream? OK, dreams tend to be be a bit weird, and that can obviously be a bit of a give away, but in terms of actual representation in the brain, it seems to me that they not actually that different. I reckon you simply KNOW the difference. I could see that the division can get blurred and sometimes a dream, or memory of a dream, risks being remembered as a memory. Likewise any strong visualisation techniques.

...sorry, I think I'm trying to justify the nonsense my brother comes out with sometimes! I think he genuinely believes he's done the things he says, despite me knowing/believing that it's simply not possible - the dates don't lineup or some such.

Aren't dreams a result of your memory being sorted, which is why you have trouble remembering them. Also why often your dreams appear to make no sense.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

I had a colleague for many years who was known for her memory of what was said in meetings and by whom. She could relate to me what I had said about a subject three years earlier, and it would ring loud bells in my memory.

One day on a journey I asked her about her amazing memory and she told me it was sometimes useful, but mostly a curse. Other people would gradually come to agree on (and believe in) a mutually acceptable version of the past enabling them to get on with work. She could not do that and frequently found herself hung up on what had actually happened.

She said this had seriously limited her career, where consensus was more important than truth.

I have a bad habit of playing on other peoples doubts about events when I spot them, but I must add, I only do it in harmless situations, and for fun. As soon as I spot it, I just make something up, and state it with quiet confidence, and then sit back. The number of times people just accept it as the gospel truth is incredible, especially as it's usually people that know I have a very poor memory.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Aren't dreams a result of your memory being sorted, which is why you have trouble remembering them. Also why often your dreams appear to make no sense.

I think there's a slight aspect of that, especially if there is some specific issue on your mind, but for the most part, it's just your brain trying to interpret the weak stimuli that it's receiving.

The other thing with dreams is that the images are often symbolic, rather than literal, but they can be revealing, and provide an interesting third party view to a problem.

The mind is incredible, as it's hard to rationalise thinking about IT, with IT actually being US.

 

[yello]

I'm sure there'll be other aspects of bodily functions, such as passing motions or water that are also controlled by the same thing that tells us we're asleep.

I'd agree, I'm sure the body 'knows' it's asleep - it is, after all, controlling that; lowering the heart rate, shutting down certain functions and starting others, etc.

It's more the mental representations of dreams that I'm interested in. We have memories of dreams, and memories of real world events. What differentiates the 2 to the awake mind (other than, as I said, simply knowing one's a dream and one's real) How do we know and not mix the 2 up? I reckon there's scope for a dream to be remembered as something that has actually happened - particularly when you consider that dreams often incorporate real events. We can have dreams of memories, and memories of dreams - it could all get messed up!

 

[ClichéGuevara]

I'd agree, I'm sure they body 'knows' it's asleep - it is, after all, controlling that; lowering the heart rate, shutting down certain functions and starting others, etc.

It's more the mental representations of dreams that I'm interested in. We have memories of dreams, and memories of real world events. What differentiates the 2 to the awake mind (other than, as I said, simply knowing one's a dream and one's a dream) How do we know and not mix the 2 up? I reckon there's scope for a dream to be remembered as something that has actually happened - particularly when you consider than dreams often incorporate real events. We can have dreams of memories, and memories of dreams - it could all get messed up!

I suspect (and ALL of this is my far from expert opinion) that they're logged in different parts of the brain, as one is dominated by the conscious, and the other the unconscious mind.