Phillips possible project

[raleighnut]

As part of Ti they would have had access to 531 tubing, plain gauge 531isn't that light as opposed to double butted stuff.

 

[biggs682]

I still think it's a nice bike that would or should restore nicely

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

Frame and fork weigh 4kg

Looking at photos I'm thinking this was a fairly basic tourer, would you agree?

I would stick a pair of wheels & tyres in the dropouts so the frame sits in it's intended orientation, with the top tube level and the BB off the ground. That way you will be better able to assess how sporty or slack the geometry is and also see if it was built for 26" or 27" wheels.
As a comparison of frame weights, I have a 23" full 531ST double butted frame that weighs 7.8 lbs with the BB & headset bearings in situ, and a 21" hi-tensile Apollo hybrid frame that weighs 9.6 lbs in the same state.
Assuming your scales are accurate, if your frame weighs 8.8 lbs without the BB in situ, I am inclined to think it's either hi-tensile, or 531 plain gauge in the main tubes at best.
@rogerzilla seems to have done more frame weighings than most, so will probably have a good idea of the likely material - so long as your weight figures are accurate.

 

[BalkanExpress]

If the rear is 126mm I would guess that this was cold set at some point.

 

[raleighnut]

If the rear is 126mm I would guess that this was cold set at some point.

It could have been but sticking a 126 wheel in a 120mm frame and riding it for a couple of years will have the same effect.

see if it was built for 26" or 27" wheels

Conveniently 700c is in between the 2 sizes so a bit of careful brake calliper selection will probably allow them to fit, I did it with my Raleigh City and it allowed me to use some nice Weinmann aluminium brakes instead of the twisted steel ones it came with, not to mention ally rims instead of the rusty chrome ones on the bike when I got it.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

Conveniently 700c is in between the 2 sizes so a bit of careful brake calliper selection will probably allow them to fit, I did it with my Raleigh City and it allowed me to use some nice Weinmann aluminium brakes instead of the twisted steel ones it came with, not to mention ally rims instead of the rusty chrome ones on the bike when I got it.

I'm not always convinced about replacing 26" wheels by 27" or 700's. There's a definite difference between the way a 26" bike feels to ride and the way one on larger wheels feels to ride. I was given a cheap "catalogue bike" type 3-speed, which was built with fairly slack roadster geometry but 27" wheels. Whilst it's comfortable enough, and it will get me from A to B, I don't find it handles anywhere near as well, and doesn't feel as nimble, as any of my 26" wheel bikes. It might only be an inch difference, but it does noticeably alter the ride, and not for the better, IMHO.
My rod braked Raleigh is a funny beast; you'd expect it to handle like a tank from it's solid appearance, but it doesn't. It's quite nippy by 3-speed standards due to being 26" and having a relatively short wheelbase.

 

[raleighnut]

I'm not always convinced about replacing 26" wheels by 27" or 700's. There's a definite difference between the way a 26" bike feels to ride and the way one on larger wheels feels to ride. I was given a cheap "catalogue bike" type 3-speed, which was built with fairly slack roadster geometry but 27" wheels. Whilst it's comfortable enough, and it will get me from A to B, I don't find it handles anywhere near as well, and doesn't feel as nimble, as any of my 26" wheel bikes. It might only be an inch difference, but it does noticeably alter the ride, and not for the better, IMHO.
My rod braked Raleigh is a funny beast; you'd expect it to handle like a tank from it's solid appearance, but it doesn't. It's quite nippy by 3-speed standards due to being 26" and having a relatively short wheelbase.

The overall diameter of a 700c wheel with 28mm tyres on and a 26" x 1 3/8ths wheel tyre combo is about the same I'd say, don't forget there are 5 or 6 wheels called 26" all of which are different sizes.

EDIT Btw I think 28 is the biggest tyre needed on a roadster, if I want squishier tyres I'd pick an MTB.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

Agreed, a skinny 700c is not much bigger than a chunky 26", but if you compare similar width tyres, but different diameter rims, the size difference is noticeable.
Theoretically a 26" x 1 3/8" ISO 590 wheel & tyre IS 26" diameter (my Marathons actually measure about 26 1/4"), but a ISO 622 rim shod with 35mm tyres is going to be a minimum of 27 1/4" overall diameter, and can be nearer 27 1/2" if puncture-protected tyres like Marathons are fitted.

 

[biggs682]

I used to love riding the old Hercules Aston Tourist I had a while back built with 26" but I fitted 27" it even looked right .

 

[rogerzilla]

If you can, weigh the bare frame without the fork or headset cups. For a medium size frame of 22":

Full 531DB is about 4lb 8oz
531 main tubes, non-butted, about 5lb 2oz
Hi-tensile steel, just under 6lb.

If the lugs and dropouts are particularly heavy (investment cast) this will add an ounce or two.

If the frame is very old and is under 4.5lb (I had one that was 4lb 2oz once), it may be Accles & Pollock Kromo, which was a good chromoly. Reynolds bought them out and we were back to mang-moly for another 50 years!

 

[All uphill]

I would stick a pair of wheels & tyres in the dropouts so the frame sits in it's intended orientation, with the top tube level and the BB off the ground. That way you will be better able to assess how sporty or slack the geometry is and also see if it was built for 26" or 27" wheels.
As a comparison of frame weights, I have a 23" full 531ST double butted frame that weighs 7.8 lbs with the BB & headset bearings in situ, and a 21" hi-tensile Apollo hybrid frame that weighs 9.6 lbs in the same state.
Assuming your scales are accurate, if your frame weighs 8.8 lbs without the BB in situ, I am inclined to think it's either hi-tensile, or 531 plain gauge in the main tubes at best.
@rogerzilla seems to have done more frame weighings than most, so will probably have a good idea of the likely material - so long as your weight figures are accurate.

The frame is 22" centre of bottom bracket to top of seat post. The frame alone weighs 6lb 8oz and the fork is 2lb 8oz, so with your helpful info, it sounds like high tensile steel.

My plans for it continue to change. I had a very good result stripping and spraying another steel frame so I will certainly do that with this one. I will also start to research and hunt down headset and bottom bracket. Back to Sheldon Brown and you guys!

Today I'll put the frame on the wheels from my singlespeed to get an idea of how it will look, and if it's a decent fit for me. I'll post a picture then.

 

[All uphill]

My learning continues!

My singlespeed axles don't fit in the dropouts, so here's the best I could do.

These tyres are 30mm and a reasonably close fit between the chain stays, which is interesting. It also seems that the chain stays aren't hugely long. Do you agree this was probably a sporty drop bar bike?

 

[rogerzilla]

Imperial axles are slightly smaller. You need to carefully file the bottom edge of the dropout slots to accommodate metric axles. This is not too easy as you need to round them off smoothly too. The fork is a bit easier as the slots are smaller. Leave the upper edge of the slots alone or the wheel may sit askew.

 

[carpenter]

................ Leave the upper edge of the slots alone or the wheel may sit askew.

Excellent tip - I wouldn't have thought of that aspect (until too late )

 

[All uphill]

Today's task was to chemically strip the paint. That went well and no nasties discovered. Tomorrow or Monday I will start the wire-wooling to get a good finish by when the primer and paint should have arrived (I've decided on purple paintwork with gold decals and lining).

My 2009 Trek bike is up for sale to create some space and to let me spend on this with a clear conscience.