Police object to Southwark’s 20 mph speed limit plans - Includes Pedal Cycles!

[stowie]

Very true. For a comparison I play rugby and the difference between hitting a 12st guy and an 18st guy is absolutely massive. One you can barely notice and the other can knock the wind out of you massively. That's only a 50% increase in mass but the difference is huge.
Now compare that with the 900% mark up from bike to car and how anyone could imagine that it wouldn't make any difference is mad. My maths isn't fantastic but wouldn't a bike need to be going at motorway speeds to have the same effect as a car at 25mph

Taking GrumpyGregry's KE result at face value, the bicycle would need to be travelling at around 80mph to generate the same KE (assuming rider + bike = 100kg, but even if the combined weight was 200kg, the speed would need to be around 60mph). Neither speed are ones that I have yet to attain under my own pedal power.

 

[benb]

It's impossible to do though. Or at least at the moment, though average speed cameras will ultimately change that. That aside, there's the well known statistic that speed is only a factor in 5% of accidents, although it's also quoted that it's the only 5% they can easily do anything about.
I suppose we should be grateful really that we already have such a low death rate on our roads - I was reading about Brazil recently. They had over 33'000 there last year.
Of course it would always be good if the accident rate was lower, but I'm not sure that more 20 limits will necessarily achieve that, even if they are the signs with nice children's snail drawings underneath...

Even if it were true that speed was a factor in only 5% of collisions, which I find utterly implausible, a lower speed would still make a collision less likely, and the outcome less severe.

 

[marknotgeorge]

Shoemakers. The blanket "street lights = 30mph" limit was introduced in 1930 at which point cyclists had been capable of exceeding 30 mph for decades.

Car vs Bike vs Child?

The vehicle would make a tremendous difference to the child's well being

Me in a Fiat 500 at 25mph = 66550 joules of KE
Me on a bike at 25mph = 7260 joules of KE

Nearly 10 times as much KE would be transferred to them if hit by a small car rather than the bike. The laws of physics are merciless and KE makes a harsh mistress.

It'd still be a rather unpleasant experience.

 

[J.Primus]

Actually, local government can. Byelaws are still laws... and they're brought in by local authorities through delegated powers.

The scope of what they can do with those bylaws is very limited. To the best of my knowledge they cannot create new criminal offences. They are devolved power to set speed limits under that 2010 signage act I can't remember the name of but it does not give them the authority to redefine the road traffic act.
If you can find a single instance where a council has enacted a bylaw that has created a new criminal offence that is only an offence in that borough I'd be very interested to see it.

 

[J.Primus]

I'm afraid that the extent of your knowledge is limited. Local authorities can create summary criminal offences through byelaws...

Link?

 

[J.Primus]

I suggest you go to gov.uk and look at the guidance on byelaws issued by the Department for Communities and Local Government. I'm not here to spoonfeed the ignorant...

So no evidence then. Carry on.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

So no evidence then. Carry on.

I believe this is the source User is referring to:
https://www.gov.uk/local-government-legislation-byelaws

"Since byelaws create criminal offences, they cannot come into effect unless they have been confirmed by a Secretary of State."​

GC

 

[Cubist]

How about the Birmingham Tripe Boilers Act?

 

[J.Primus]

From gov.uk
'A byelaw is a local law which is made by a statutory body, such as a local authority, under an enabling power established by an Act of Parliament. If there is general legislation to cover the subject causing concern, byelaws are not generally considered suitable.'

Wow. Knocked if out of the park there champ. It's almost like councils can't make laws that cut across existing legislation.

 

[J.Primus]

I believe this is the source User is referring to:
https://www.gov.uk/local-government-legislation-byelaws

"Since byelaws create criminal offences, they cannot come into effect unless they have been confirmed by a Secretary of State."​

GC

Cheers. Obviously User is still trying to work out how google works.

 

[Cubist]

From gov.uk
'A byelaw is a local law which is made by a statutory body, such as a local authority, under an enabling power established by an Act of Parliament. If there is general legislation to cover the subject causing concern, byelaws are not generally considered suitable.'

Wow. Knocked if out of the park there champ. It's almost like councils can't make laws that cut across existing legislation.

There are very few road traffic offences in terms of signage etc that are covered by the road traffic act itself. Nearly all the restrictions you see in towns and cities are created by byelaw. For example, one way streets, no left or right turn , etc etc. speeding legislation in the RTA starts at 30 mph. In order to create a 20 mph limit, they need a byelaw. In other words, there is no existing rnforceable legislation to provide for anything lower than 30 mph. Then, all speeding under the RTA refers to mechanically propelled vehicles. In order to extend that to pedal cycles the borough must use a byelaw. That will of course be open to challenge, and the police will object simply because of the resources it would take to prove the offence, even if they thought it were necessary.

 

[Cubist]

Can I haz TMN?

You can have one for my post too, but I make no excuses because some folk are too busy being rude to think straight and comprehend........

 

[J.Primus]

I don't have to rely on Google, as I actually know what I'm talking about.

Shall we just refresh our memories on your claims?



Oh but they can, can't they - 'cos byelaws are laws...

Then you compounded your ignorance with:



Whoops... wrong yet again...

Then you try to wriggle out of it by suggesting:L



But as the various road traffic Acts don't cover speed limits for bicycles, then a byelaw is the perfect tool to bring one in for a local area.



Now, do you really want to be spanked any more?

Hey if spanking random men on the internet is your thing then don't let me stop you.

 

[J.Primus]

You really don;t know when to give up, do you..? Were you dropped on your head as a child?

Why? What do you have against children who've suffered head injuries? Are they not people too.

 

[PK99]

Now, now children! Stop that bickering!