Police stopping cyclists in Preston

[genisis]

why not register your bike at a bike shop or some where

 

[PK99]

Reasonable? In what sort of world is it reasonable that an officer of the state can sieze a person's property without proving that that person is guilty and that the property is stolen?
I'm really open mouthed in incredulity that so many people are happy to throw away a thousand years of law and democracy , I'm also equally gob smacked that so many people would be happy to see themselves in a situation where they would be saying " I'm innocent" and the police would be saying " prove it" It's really , really worrying that all of those people who will allow the police to act like Judge Dredd have a vote! :-(

Have a look here >>>> http://www.advicegui...lice_powers.htm

Stop and account
The police can stop anyone in a public place and ask you to account for yourself. For example, you could be asked to account for your actions, behaviour, presence in an area or possession of anything. When the police stop you and ask you for an explanation, you don't need to provide your personal details. The police do not have to make a record or give you a receipt. But you may be asked to give your ethnicity.

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When can the police seize property
Police should only seize goods if they have reasonable grounds for believing that:

• they have been obtained illegally; or
• they are evidence in relation to an offence.

In either of these cases, they must also have reasonable grounds for believing that it is necessary to seize the goods to prevent them being lost, stolen or destroyed.

 

[gaz]

Oh that's an easy one, they presume that you are innocent , right up until the moment that a court of law decides otherwise. Of course this is time consuming and expensive , so I can see the attraction of trying to reverse the burden of proof, the attraction for the police I mean.

Your initial comment stated that because you where innocent then you didn't want your time waisted. And again i'll point out, how do the police know you are innocent until they have had a chat with you?
Would the police get anywhere in any case if all they thought about was disturbing the innocent people from their daily lives?

 

[roadrash]

policeman .."oh look there goes a smack head on a brand new carbon fibre bike"
smackhead ..".you cant waste two minutes of my time , im innocent "
policeman ..."i do apologise sir , on your way then before you beat me up

DOES,NT REALLY WORK DOES IT
GET A GRIP

 

[PK99]

why not register your bike at a bike shop or some where

eg http://www.immobilise.com/

 

[doog]

Reasonable? In what sort of world is it reasonable that an officer of the state can sieze a person's property without proving that that person is guilty and that the property is stolen?
I'm really open mouthed in incredulity that so many people are happy to throw away a thousand years of law and democracy , I'm also equally gob smacked that so many people would be happy to see themselves in a situation where they would be saying " I'm innocent" and the police would be saying " prove it" It's really , really worrying that all of those people who will allow the police to act like Judge Dredd have a vote! :-(

Playing devils advocate here.

there is a thousand years of law and democracy and then there is the Police and Criminal Evidence Act.

LYB is questioning Police powers to seize property (bikes) when the officer is conducting these stop checks on cyclists.

Does that officer suspect the bike to be stolen when he stops the cyclist? Answer No. He is stopping the cyclist under the Road Traffic Act (?)and will then, through questioning form the opinion that the property is stolen. If he thinks its stolen he seizes it - but shouldnt he be arresting the offender as well? for handling or sus theft?


If this isnt happening then one would question if the Officer has formed reasonable suspicion or has reasonable grounds that the cycle is stolen!!

Seizing something because the Police' want to check it out 'etc shouldnt be happening of course.

It happens all the time we know....stopping vehicles under the road traffic act etc then goes onto a S1 search and arrest or seizure of property but using this routine for cyclists may be argued (by some) as being unethical and not within the spirit of PACE.



PS

can someone clarify under what act the cyclists are being stopped under?

 

[PK99]

Does that officer suspect the bike to be stolen when he stops the cyclist? Answer No. He is stopping the cyclist under the Road Traffic Act (?)

no he isn't , :


http://www.homeoffic...top-and-search/


Stop and account

Stop and account (that is where an individual is asked to account for their presence, actions etc, but not searched) is not a defined power set out in primary legislation, but an important part of on-street policing and constitutes the next step beyond the general conversations officers have with members of the public every day.

 

[Shaun]

One such way would be to ask which shop the bike was bought from - and if the person says "Shop x" and they are know not to stock that brand of bike, it would be an opening to question further to see if there are other holes in the background story.

 

[Sheffield_Tiger]

One such way would be to ask which shop the bike was bought from - and if the person says "Shop x" and they are know not to stock that brand of bike, it would be an opening to question further to see if there are other holes in the background story.

Bike: JE James, Edinburgh Bicycle Co-Operative and an old bike given to me (it's made from 3 bikes at the moment)
Trike: eBay

and when my tourer gets rebuilt as a tourer again with a clean, decal-free frame...have I deliberately painted the frame to avoid it being identified as stolen?

Either could ring alarm bells...if this initiative spreads I'm glad I can walk in my cycling shoes when my transport gets confiscated....

 

[doog]

no he isn't , :


http://www.homeoffic...top-and-search/


Stop and account

This isnt a power. Stop and account is simply a term used to describe the stopping of individuals in cases where stop/ search cannot be justified and usually follows the commission of an offence in the vicinity or similar, certainly not random stops of cyclists. It was made up to put a name on a practice that fell outside of any legislation.

You simply cannot randomly stop cyclists without a power ie the Road Traffic Act. You cannot stop them to clarify if their bicycle is stolen unless you have reasonable suspicion that it is stolen at the time you make that decision to stop them.

If you seize their bike because you suspect it may be stolen then there are reasonable grounds to suspect the person riding it has committed an offence of theft or handling so they should be arrested. If you dont arrest them then do you honestly think the the bike is stolen? No - in that case should it be seized- No.

Looks like this thread has stalled but having doubted the 'doubters' I can see where some of them are coming from.

 

[nilling]

<snip> For instance, a man who is riding a woman’s bike or a child’s bike will be stopped as that instantly rouses suspicion.


Seems fair enough

If I'd got stopped I'd become Calum Gilhooley about my bike!

 

[Crankarm]

This isnt a power. Stop and account is simply a term used to describe the stopping of individuals in cases where stop/ search cannot be justified and usually follows the commission of an offence in the vicinity or similar, certainly not random stops of cyclists. It was made up to put a name on a practice that fell outside of any legislation.

You simply cannot randomly stop cyclists without a power ie the Road Traffic Act. You cannot stop them to clarify if their bicycle is stolen unless you have reasonable suspicion that it is stolen at the time you make that decision to stop them.

If you seize their bike because you suspect it may be stolen then there are reasonable grounds to suspect the person riding it has committed an offence of theft or handling so they should be arrested. If you dont arrest them then do you honestly think the the bike is stolen? No - in that case should it be seized- No.

Looks like this thread has stalled but having doubted the 'doubters' I can see where some of them are coming from.

Hallejulah, praise the good Lord!

 

[PK99]

This isnt a power. Stop and account is simply a term used to describe the stopping of individuals in cases where stop/ search cannot be justified and usually follows the commission of an offence in the vicinity or similar, certainly not random stops of cyclists. l

CAB advice is:


Stop and account
The police can stop anyone in a public place and ask you to account for yourself. For example, you could be asked to account for your actions, behaviour, presence in an area or possession of anything. When the police stop you and ask you for an explanation, you don't need to provide your personal details. The police do not have to make a record or give you a receipt. But you may be asked to give your ethnicity.

...

There is no suggestion anywhere of random stops, as noted several times in the thread, "something out of place or unusual" would trigger a stop.




....




I presume that if the "account" is not satisfactory the interaction would move beyond "stop and account"

 

[doog]

CAB advice is:


Stop and account
The police can stop anyone in a public place and ask you to account for yourself. For example, you could be asked to account for your actions, behaviour, presence in an area or possession of anything. When the police stop you and ask you for an explanation, you don't need to provide your personal details. The police do not have to make a record or give you a receipt. But you may be asked to give your ethnicity.

...

There is no suggestion anywhere of random stops, as noted several times in the thread, "something out of place or unusual" would trigger a stop.



....



I presume that if the "account" is not satisfactory the interaction would move beyond "stop and account"

I appreciate that you are quoting from the CAB but so called stop and account does require some modicum of an offence having occurred or about to be committed etc, which is why I dont believe they are or should be using it for this operation.

If jimmy was riding a pink pinarello that would justify being stopped under pace, if someone was seen late at night in a street suffering from burglaries that would justify stopping and talking to the bloke.


The main issue is that some detractors on here have indicated that they would refuse to stop. Refusing to stop and account for yourself is not an offence, it may be construed as obstruction however it is important to note that unless the Police have reasonable suspicion that the bike is stolen before they stop you they would be struggling to justify stopping you.

This is how civil claims arise. Mr total innocent riding home from work is randomly stopped for no reason other than to check his bike out. By relying on stop and account he can refuse to stop. The Police would then need a *power* to physically stop him. They would resort to Section 1 PACE (Stop search) and have to suspect the bike was stolen before probably stopping him by force.

Now why would the Police suddenly suspect Mr Total innocents bike was stolen just because he refused to stop under a power that doesnt actually exist in law.

I'm just breaking things down here, not trying to cause problems. I fully support pro- active operations by the police but now I am scratching beneath the surface I can understand why, should this go wrong, Preston Police may find themselves on the receiving end of a civil claim either for wrongful arrest or unlawful seizure of property if it caused the owner loss (ie couldnt get to work etc)

Thats all

 

[Zoiders]

[QUOTE 1576851"]
If I go to Preston and ride around on my mtb, how are the local coppers in Preston going to know if The Bicycle Chain in Bridgwater stock Trek?

This initiative is just too full of holes.
[/quote]If only there was some magical device that allowed a person to project his or her voice over hundreds of miles...we could call it a "speech box" or "telesonic projector".

If only we lived in a realm of science fiction - until then it's back to the good old fashioned police whistle and runners carrying messages for the magistrate to fetch the horse troopers to put down a riot down by the old salt docks.