Police training and riding primary

[BentMikey]

I suggest you need to re-think your risk assessment, gbb. Getting doored is the most common cause of killed and seriously injured cyclists in London.

You might be observant, but you'll never be observant enough. You're almost certainly spending too much time observing parked cars for occupants, and not spending enough time watching the moving traffic around you.

Don't ride in the door zone.

 

[gaz]

I think it's complete madness to cycle within the door zone and try to rely on your observation. Just don't ride in the door zone unless you're doing 5mph or less.

Agree

 

[BentMikey]

Fascinating. Must take some skill handling the recoil. And as for difficulty to get an accurate shot while moving, balancing ... the possible 'collateral' damage would seem frightening!

Makes me think of the French inline skating cops!

 

[GrasB]

She then went on
"It's an awkward one that isn't it? You see, if you ride far enough out so that the door won't hit you, you'd be too far out and holding up the traffic..."

It's not an awkward one, you should be out of the door zone no matter what vehicle you're in/on. IMO you stay out of the door zone unless there's a clear safety reason that it's less dangerous than not being in it. I say this after watching someone open a car door a few inches, iirc something was trapped in the door & was pulled back in, this caused the driver passing the car to jink away from the parked car... straight into the front of an on coming car.

 

[phaedrus]

An former aquaintance - a very experienced cyclist - was commuting to work when he was doored. He was knocked off his bike and into the path of the bus that was behind him. Stay out of the door zone.

 

[Origamist]

As above.

Its weighing risk. If you're observant, you can (i can) deal with it.
Nothings 100%. Spend most of the time observing, and maybe once in a blue moon get (nearly) caught by a door.....or spend most of your time in the road..and most of the time playing with the traffic. Risk reduction.

It's not just about your powers of observation, you have to be able to react (i.e take avoiding action) as well. As I've go older, I no longer back my ability to take evasive action in time.

Do I enter the door zone, yes, but I try to keep it to a minimum.

 

[Ste T.]

thomas, post#3, makes a very good point. If PCs and PCSOs practiced primary they would be setting a good example to other riders and drivers alike. Either way it shows a training need and the police authority could find themselves guilty of neglect under duty of care to employees. As ever it will take one of them to be seriously injured or killed for anything to be done about it.

 

[gbb]

I suggest you need to re-think your risk assessment, gbb. Getting doored is the most common cause of killed and seriously injured cyclists in London.

You might be observant, but you'll never be observant enough. You're almost certainly spending too much time observing parked cars for occupants, and not spending enough time watching the moving traffic around you.

Don't ride in the door zone.

Really !!!. While not wishing to say you're wrong (because i dont have the facts), i'd be flabbergasted if more cyclists got injured by being doored than all other accidents together. In all the years ive been reading the papers in Peterborough, i dont recall one accident being reported where someones got doored. But you do read all the time of accidents by other causes.

It's not an awkward one, you should be out of the door zone no matter what vehicle you're in/on. IMO you stay out of the door zone unless there's a clear safety reason that it's less dangerous than not being in it. I say this after watching someone open a car door a few inches, iirc something was trapped in the door & was pulled back in, this caused the driver passing the car to jink away from the parked car... straight into the front of an on coming car.

This is why i quoted my local circumstances. 99% of the cycle lanes in Peterborough are urban. A good deal of them have cars parked next to them. That'd render the cycle lanes completely useless because you'd spend most of your time in the road...and dicing with traffic.
Again...spend most of your (my) time in traffic...or use the cycle lane, be observant and careful.

It's not just about your powers of observation, you have to be able to react (i.e take avoiding action) as well. As I've go older, I no longer back my ability to take evasive action in time.

Do I enter the door zone, yes, but I try to keep it to a minimum.

If it works for you, no problem.

The trouble is, you base all your (my) habits on your own experiences. What works for me may well not work for someone else.
Have i ever been doored. No
Have i come close...yes (possibly once or twice in 35 ish years of cycling). But observation 'saved' me from possible injury.
Now imagine the amount of times you'll get in a tussle with a motorist while in the road (irrespective of whether theres a door zone or not). It's almost a daily occurence.
So do i want to be in with the traffic and have almost daily occurences, or do i use the cycle lane, be observant, and have maybe two incidents in 35 years.
I know which one i'd choose
In the road, there's a risk. In the door zone, there's a risk. My experience shows me which is riskier.

Each to their own. I'm not right, i'm not wrong.

 

[BentMikey]

Really !!!. While not wishing to say you're wrong (because i dont have the facts), i'd be flabbergasted if more cyclists got injured by being doored than all other accidents together.

Ah, now that's not quite what I said. I said being doored is the biggest cause of cyclist KSIs in London, not that it was greater than the sum of all other causes. It's most definitely correct for a set of London statistics in a report somewhere. And please let's not call them accidents, they are collisions.

I hate to be so black and white, but here in this situation you're most definitely wrong. Relying on observation is no protection at all, it's just wishful thinking. It can happen in a moment, here's a video example. Had I been in the door zone, and the door opened a moment later, there's absolutely no way I could have reacted in any way that would have avoided this door. I'm not even sure I could have gotten out of the way if the timing had been the same.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJcwSCHavXE



If your cycle lanes are in the door zone, then they are pointless and negligently designed cycle lanes. That's one of the many reasons why so many cycle lanes are said to show the most dangerous bits of road to ride in. No one makes you take the risk of using them.

 

[gbb]

Ah, now that's not quite what I said. I said being doored is the biggest cause of cyclist KSIs in London, not that it was greater than the sum of all other causes. It's most definitely correct for a set of London statistics in a report somewhere. And please let's not call them accidents, they are collisions.

I hate to be so black and white, but here in this situation you're most definitely wrong. Relying on observation is no protection at all, it's just wishful thinking. It can happen in a moment, here's a video example. Had I been in the door zone, and the door opened a moment later, there's absolutely no way I could have reacted in any way that would have avoided this door. I'm not even sure I could have gotten out of the way if the timing had been the same.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJcwSCHavXE



If your cycle lanes are in the door zone, then they are pointless and negligently designed cycle lanes. That's one of the many reasons why so many cycle lanes are said to show the most dangerous bits of road to ride in. No one makes you take the risk of using them.

In a way thats no doubt true.
But does the inclusion of a cycle lane 'generally' increase safety. I think it does.
Take Oundle Road in Peterborough. Its as wide as it ever was before cycle lanes were introduced. Ive found plusses and minuses with the cycle lanes.
Generally, cars do stay on their side, giving you a (generally) fixed amount of room. When there were no cycle lanes, cars would often come closer. There's a reluctance for drivers to enter the cycle lane at speed and overtake you. Its very rare (although it does happen)

The cars were always there, the risk always there. But short of widening the road to accomodate everyone...its the best of a bad choice.

Personally, i'm quite happy they gave us them. I've had far fewer problems since their introduction.

The minuses ?. Approaching junctions and ASLs, traffic will move over into them...because of the lack of room for everyone. The road is only capable of taking so much. But thats a minor inconvenience, not a danger.

The other minus...some cars will pass quite close. Their on their side, you're on yours. It seems as though that makes it alright then . But then you always had some cars pass close anyway, long before the introduction of the lanes.

 

[gbb]

I should say..i'm not advocating everyone should ride in the door zone. I'm simply quoting my personal experiences. Ive done alright by them.

Everyone should, and will find their own way, partly by experience, partly by asking. Like every question, you will get at least two different answers. No-ones right, no-ones wrong.

 

[StuartG]

I guess you have to be 'doored' before you really appreciate the danger. For me it was a driver getting out at a red light junction (to clean his window?) while I filtered through. So not high speed, bruises & dazing rather than cuts & bones.

Where there is a door there is an accident waiting to happen. You probably pass thousands on an urban 10 mile trip. A tiny percentage risk per vehicle stacks up over time into certainty.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

It must be one of the marks of being a cyclist that you always check over your shoulder or in your mirror before opening your car (or lorry) door.

 

[summerdays]

I think it's complete madness to cycle within the door zone and try to rely on your observation. Just don't ride in the door zone unless you're doing 5mph or less.

I can't cycle around Bristol and avoid the door zone unless I stop before every set of parked cars if there is a car coming. By the time you are cycling along a road that is parked on both sides depending on how narrow it is you will already be in the door zone or else you will be if there is a car coming the opposite direction. I'm not saying its ideal but its a compromise between being able to cycle or spending half my time stopped waiting for on coming traffic.

Other areas to be particularly aware of is outside schools (especially the back doors), and shops.

 

[gbb]

I guess you have to be 'doored' before you really appreciate the danger. For me it was a driver getting out at a red light junction (to clean his window?) while I filtered through. So not high speed, bruises & dazing rather than cuts & bones.

Where there is a door there is an accident waiting to happen. You probably pass thousands on an urban 10 mile trip. A tiny percentage risk per vehicle stacks up over time into certainty.

But you can apply the same principle to riding in traffic, away from the door zone.
I still believe there's a small chance of getting doored , even if you're observant. I also believe there's a greater chance of getting into a tussle with a car if you're in the 'traffic' zone.
Small risk of being doored, greater risk of getting problems in the traffic zone.
Risk management, making the best of poor choices, given the roads are only so big, there's so much traffic, so little room.
I feel confident in what i'm doing...