Program Your New Tesla to Break the Law

Drago

Flouncing Nobber
Location
Poshshire
I've heard similar, yeah. Also they can ban vehicles from their charging network, and have a policy of banning any vehicles that have been repaired after being written off. This has a major effect on their value so is another method of trying to control the used market. All a bit naughty really.
Not only that, but most optional functions are already built in to the car and when you order the car its a simple (for Tesla) software exercise to switch on the options that the customers have brought.

Sell the car, and it is not unknown for Tesla to get wind of there being a new owner and switch off the options over the air, so the new owner has to pay all over again. I don't think this has happened in the UK yet, but for how long if its happening elsewhere?

Having gone this far, how long will it be before Tesla then decide to start charging you annually for an option you already bought with the car? Again, it's happening elsewhere but not here...yet.

What a charming bunch of people. Your car has something already built in and on board and they hold you to a monthly ransom if you actually want to use them. Imagine buying a telly and paying extra to have it displsy a colour picture, or a microwave but having to pay extra before it will heat up a pie?

It's not an insignificant reason why we chose the Polestar 2 over the Tesla 3. That and the fact we didn't want to risk turning into smug tw**s like many Teslerati seem to do.
 

MrGrumpy

Huge Member
Location
Fly Fifer
Not only that, but most optional functions are already built in to the car and when you order the car its a simple (for Tesla) software exercise to switch on the options that the customers have brought.

Sell the car, and it is not unknown for Tesla to get wind of there being a new owner and switch off the options over the air, so the new owner has to pay all over again. I don't think this has happened in the UK yet, but for how long if its happening elsewhere?

Having gone this far, how long will it be before Tesla then decide to start charging you annually for an option you already bought with the car? Again, it's happening elsewhere but not here...yet.

What a charming bunch of people. Your car has something already built in and on board and they hold you to a monthly ransom if you actually want to use them. Imagine buying a telly and paying extra to have it displsy a colour picture, or a microwave but having to pay extra before it will heat up a pie?

It's not an insignificant reason why we chose the Polestar 2 over the Tesla 3. That and the fact we didn't want to risk turning into smug tw**s like many Teslerati seem to do.
Didn’t know they did that, doesn’t seem right does it ?! Wonder if other manufacturers do the same .
 

JhnBssll

Veteran
Location
Suffolk
Yeah I've heard of this happening, especially if the car goes through a used dealer. They all come with the Full Self Drive hardware but the software upgrade is £6300. They now offer a monthly subscription for it at a very generous $199/month :laugh: The model 3 long range has an 'acceleration boost' upgrade that takes half a second off the 0-60 time but costs a full £1500 and again will get stripped on resale for the next owner to buy again...

I strongly suspect the mainstream brands will catch up with them pretty quickly for reasons like these but it might be a year or two off as yet. As much as I love it I doubt my second EV will be a Tesla.
 

Drago

Flouncing Nobber
Location
Poshshire
The most decent case of this in the media was all the more galling as the car had been sold at an official Tesla used car auction!

It gets to something when youre actually safer buying a used car from Arthur Daley than from the people that manufactured it.
 
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"putting a Tesla in “assertive” mode will effectively direct the car to tailgate other motorists, perform unsafe passing maneuvers, and roll through certain stops (“average” mode isn’t much safer). All those behaviors are illegal in most U.S. states"

Well, I predicted that was always going to happen: it's just too likely that some self-driving car maker was going to bet that the extra profit from increased sales for their car being the "best" at bullying through traffic will outweigh any fines for systematic lawbreaking.

The really scary time will be when the likes of Joe's Performance Motor Tuners figures out how to reprogram them. Sure, the manufacturers will try to keep this knowledge and access to their dealers, just like they did with Engine Control Units and alarm systems, but the independents will accuse them of unfair competition and so on and I think they'll win. Then we'll have one-off remappings or possibly even total reprogrammings and then some members of the public will get access the same way and the fun will really begin...

How can this be avoided? I'm not sure it can. There will need to be random vehicle tests and compulsory reflashing back to an approved legal driving program for any car found to be capable of breaking driving laws. I don't think we should ban all self-driving reprogramming because that will mean the basics will never improve and I suspect some bright spark may do better than Tesla one day.
The scary thing is always when profits are placed before the product. Like GM years ago had to call back millions of cars because of a unsafe ignition switch. The safe version was 0.50$ more expensive so they decided to go for the cheap one.

I agree that safeguards need to be in place so i would suggest open up, because the very nature of the secretcy has more often then not resulted in problems in the longer term and with cars it usually means an higher risk off deadly incidents.
Isn't that the old "all drivers break the law" myth in other words? Surely some drivers in the USA don't tailgate and roll stops like that Tesla provably does?
He does have a point, security features as automatic braking can respond much earlier and faster than a human can, both because the computer makes the decision and because the sensors see further then the human eye. And systems to prevent the driver falling asleep behind the wheel do have their purpose.
 

MrGrumpy

Huge Member
Location
Fly Fifer
Automatic breaking wasn’t working much in this Tesla :whistle: .


View: https://twitter.com/jkbartsheart/status/1482073325266423815?s=21
 

MrGrumpy

Huge Member
Location
Fly Fifer
You can't fix stupid, no matter how many driver aid features you have.

but this:


View: https://youtu.be/vI9EIjUx20I

this:


View: https://youtu.be/LGoUsaLofyI

and this


View: https://youtu.be/VE2sKm0JYH4


Show how driver aid can actually do what it is supposed too, increase safety.

Whilst I agree that kind of thing can be good, your Kia driver should have stopped driving ! Personally these options might promote driver laziness .

Wonder if the Tesla would have swerved if there was traffic coming the other way ? Is it smart enough to make those nano second decisions not that a human might be any better? All very subjective isn’t it but relying on these “enhancements” removes skills from the driver .
 
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Whilst I agree that kind of thing can be good, your Kia driver should have stopped driving ! Personally these options might promote driver laziness .

Wonder if the Tesla would have swerved if there was traffic coming the other way ? Is it smart enough to make those nano second decisions not that a human might be any better? All very subjective isn’t it but relying on these “enhancements” removes skills from the driver .

I also agree with you that the kia driver should have stopped driving, but he didn't and because of the drivers aid available he could make an youtube about it instead of being in the hospital. So i take that as a win.
The example with the truck showed an accident prevented what a truck driver could not have seen himself until it was too late.

I agree that to a certain extent you might have more ''driver lazyness'' on the other hand, it's not F1, Dtm racing etc. in other words most poeple driving are not driving because they want to be driving but because they need to go from the one place to the other. So if all those safety features make mistakes during driving less lethal, is that then really an issue? I think it an improvement, because end of the line it means less accidents.

The Tesla was driving autopilot, in this case there was no oncoming traffic as it was a two lane road. But the autopilot can decide faster than an human and also recognizes other cars, objects etc.
Surely it removes skills, but looking at the type of incidents, overtakes, and general quality of driving i'd wonder sometimes which skills? And also aren't we holding on the much to the concept of being able to drive ourselves, while for example if you make and autonomous cars only highway you could have cars driving bumper to bumper at high speeds without any issues, try that with the current driver skills. And it's expected in terms off a computer does'nt need sleep, does'nt think about other things, it's just de sensors and a mathematical calculation and the related actions to follow should and disruption occur or an other event, taking an exit to reach the destination for example.
Having said that, i beleive Tesla is still not fully automated so you need to be alert as driver, i think that's maybe the biggest risk(car taken over all controls but expecting the driver to be able to intervene if it goes wrong.)

Not only that, but most optional functions are already built in to the car and when you order the car its a simple (for Tesla) software exercise to switch on the options that the customers have brought.
That on itself is Tesla being a modern company factory etc. i inmagine with other companies it works the same or will work the same. I mean that they can use software to enable those options or not is not a bad thing, if your running Windows 10 it works exactly the same, if you change you key you can switch any Home version to Pro, Education or whatever version you might need. (most people don't especially considering the premium price but it is possible)

Sell the car, and it is not unknown for Tesla to get wind of there being a new owner and switch off the options over the air, so the new owner has to pay all over again. I don't think this has happened in the UK yet, but for how long if its happening elsewhere?
Yes but this is somethinhg that is going on for longer, there is an Youtubber who specialises in taking cars apart and repairing rebuilding them. He bought an Tesla that they pulled from the bottom of an lake, he ended up converting it to a Tesla running an V8 petrol engine why? Because Tesla refused to sell part to him. The bearings in my washing machine where gone, went to look for bearings, gues what? they only sell it with a whole drum, i was cheaper out buying an new washing machine.
With all those coorperations getting bigger we need more protection as consumer ensuring we have the right to repair and ensuring that buying a product actually means we are buying a product. Nintendo disabling console's because you did software tricks they don't like should be allowed, Apple giving an ''this device has an unauthorized repair'' message shouldn't happen. And Tesla removing features if you sell your Tesla shouldn't happen either.

Having gone this far, how long will it be before Tesla then decide to start charging you annually for an option you already bought with the car? Again, it's happening elsewhere but not here...yet.
They are build on debt, your yet is indeed rightly placed, i don't think it's a question off if but rather when?
What a charming bunch of people. Your car has something already built in and on board and they hold you to a monthly ransom if you actually want to use them. Imagine buying a telly and paying extra to have it displsy a colour picture, or a microwave but having to pay extra before it will heat up a pie?

It's not an insignificant reason why we chose the Polestar 2 over the Tesla 3. That and the fact we didn't want to risk turning into smug tw**s like many Teslerati seem to do.
Tesla was needed to get electric cars to the level that they are now but i agree with you that now that they are accepted there are better options available. I also think currently there is to much concentration on batteries and charging while you also have things like fuel cell which would solved issues for those we don't have enough on a 250mile battery range.. (for an e-vito would be a bit silly to hear ''sorry you airport shuttle is available in about an hour as it need to charge)
Mmmh... Apple and Tesla are among my most favourite companies ( well their products are anyway).
The both make great products, it's just their mentality to respecting ownership is wrong, because they don't respect it and are not afraid to use software to lock owners out. Imagine that with all those remote opening doors ring doorbells and stuff ''google determined that you did not vacuumed your house the required 2.4 times and thus you have been locked out, you the weakest link bye bye.''
 

DRM

Guru
Location
West Yorks
Just seems so off to me that someone spec’s a new car, orders it and runs it for a few years, sells it and the manufacturer then resells the cars spec to owner number 2, prospective customers should tell the seller that it stays in original spec or it’s a deal breaker, if Tesla then can’t get rid of their used stock, they’d soon pack it in, also as potential new owners won’t buy a new car that will lose extra value because of ripping off the 2nd hand buyer, they could struggle with new sales too, smacks of the old joke about the bloke that’s sold his homing pigeon….15 times
 
Just seems so off to me that someone spec’s a new car, orders it and runs it for a few years, sells it and the manufacturer then resells the cars spec to owner number 2, prospective customers should tell the seller that it stays in original spec or it’s a deal breaker, if Tesla then can’t get rid of their used stock, they’d soon pack it in, also as potential new owners won’t buy a new car that will lose extra value because of ripping off the 2nd hand buyer, they could struggle with new sales too, smacks of the old joke about the bloke that’s sold his homing pigeon….15 times
Digital Rights Managements achieves just that, but then with software on your device. But the general idea is the same, if you buy an second hand phone you don't get a netflix subscription with it for example. So if Tesla move to this model they see your options just like an Netflix subscription.
 
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