Recommendations for a tourer / hybrid / utility bike or frame please!

[iandg]

Sonder Santiago?

https://alpkit.com/products/sonder-santiago-apex1-flat-bar

£1249 for the complete bike and a crazy £999 for the frame only

 

[iandg]

Spa Cycles also do the D'Tour at just £445 for the frame. Chainstay is 455-465mm depending on frame size but doesn't have through axles.

https://spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p4800/SPA-CYCLES-DTour-Frameset#

 

[wafter]

Sonder Santiago?

https://alpkit.com/products/sonder-santiago-apex1-flat-bar

£1249 for the complete bike and a crazy £999 for the frame only

Cheers - had a look at that earlier as it happens but the chainstays are too short and the frame a bit spendy..

Spa Cycles also do the D'Tour at just £445 for the frame. Chainstay is 455-465mm depending on frame size but doesn't have through axles.

https://spacycles.co.uk/m11b0s143p4800/SPA-CYCLES-DTour-Frameset#

Looks like a good value frame on the face of it; struggling to get an idea of fit with no reach / stack values in the geometry data though. Will add it to the list

 

[Jameshow]

Marin nacasio?

 

[Dogtrousers]

Just out of interest, what's the driver behind long chain stays?

I'm not an n+1 bike-a-month person so I've only ridden a few different bikes and never had the opportunity to explore the various geometrical options.

 

[Jameshow]

Just out of interest, what's the driver behind long chain stays?

I'm not an n+1 bike-a-month person so I've only ridden a few different bikes and never had the opportunity to explore the various geometrical options.

More stable and no heel strike with large panniers on rear!

 

[wafter]

Marin nacasio?

Thanks - think I've already discounted that as the chainstays are too short.

Marin do have some really interesting, left-field and often budget friendly stuff but sadly nothing seems really appropriate. The nearest thing I can find is the Larkspur - love the chunky tyres and quirky, laid back pseudo-mixte aesthetic although I'm not keen on the short seatpost tube (and connotations for rack mounting) or low top tube junction (which would likely preclude FD fitment):

Just out of interest, what's the driver behind long chain stays?

I'm not an n+1 bike-a-month person so I've only ridden a few different bikes and never had the opportunity to explore the various geometrical options.

The main driver is seatpost tube to tyre clearance since I apparently have a very limited choice (i.e. one) of front derailleur and it's a bit of a porker.. which is what's apparently hammered the final nail into the coffin of the CdF project.

As can be seen from the link, with the chosen FD there's basically 1-2mm clearance between the FD and tyre - that's with a 40-622 tyre and quoted 430mm stays on the CdF. 450mm stays would give an additional 20mm clearance which should be ample to get some guards in there.

 

[Jameshow]

Thanks - think I've already discounted that as the chainstays are too short.

Marin do have some really interesting, left-field and often budget friendly stuff but sadly nothing seems really appropriate. The nearest thing I can find is the Larkspur - love the chunky tyres and quirky, laid back pseudo-mixte aesthetic although I'm not keen on the short seatpost tube (and connotations for rack mounting) or low top tube junction (which would likely preclude FD fitment):

View attachment 779115

The main driver is seatpost tube to tyre clearance since I apparently have a very limited choice (i.e. one) of front derailleur and it's a bit of a porker.. which is what's apparently hammered the final nail into the coffin of the CdF project.

As can be seen from the link, with the chosen FD there's basically 1-2mm clearance between the FD and tyre - that's with a 40-622 tyre and quoted 430mm stays on the CdF. 450mm stays would give an additional 20mm clearance which should be ample to get some guards in there.

Why that FD??

 

[wafter]

Why that FD??

Because they're pretty specific to application and modern triples are extremely thin on the ground. There is also a "low mount" alternative with the mount positioned below the cage, however the whole mech is a lot deeper so while its position is preferable, it's size defeats an advantage this might bring.

Interestingly Shimano have changed the cable pull routing / toggle mechanism on their newer road double FDs (105 R7000 / GRX RX400/600/800 generation), while the clamps appear significantly slimmed down too.

This makes them a lot more compact as well as being set outboard from the bike's centreline, so they occupy a lot less room behind the seatpost tube and hence maximise space for tyres or guards.

I suspect this was a reaction to the push for ever-growing tyre size (especially with gravel) and was a pretty pragmatic move IMO.

The 105 R7000 item on my CdF which takes up maybe what, 4mm directly behind the seatpost tube..?

... compared to the more conventional Alivio on the Fuji, which including the cable arm directly behind the clamp is maybe 15mm deep or more:

AFAIK there are no MTB triples that run this format (and even if there were they'd likely not play well with the larger chainrings on the touring crankset), although I am still bothering the internets to make sure..

 

[wafter]

If this post comes across a bit muffled it's because I'm currently quite far down the bike specs / geometry rabbit hole..

I appreciate the opportunity to scrawl down my findings but perhaps they might be of use to anyone else in a similar (super-niche) situation.


Thought I'd struck gold with the Genesis Tour de Fer. A model I'd previously overlooked as despite all but the most recent variants running triples I thought they were all road-based; however it transpires that many of the smattering of flat-bar models were very much MTB-focussed in terms of components and come a lot closer than I’d thought to the spec I’m after out of the box.

On top of that these bikes come with guards, racks and sometimes dynamo lighting so would require less buggering about sourcing and fitting these bits afterwards.

That said I’ve backed up on this idea as the frame geometry is a bit weird on the earlier models – comparing mediums the TdF has slightly more (6mm) stack than the CdF that's my benchmark, however bizarrely the reach is 10mm longer (surely you’d expect the touring model to be more relaxed and the gravel variant more aggressive..?).

On the one hand it’s “only 10mm” on the other short-reach bikes fit me better and as such I’m already running a 20mm shorter stem on the CdF. Any sweep on the TdF’s flat bars would also mitigate this of course; however I’d also like to run some bullhorns which wouldn’t be so forgiving.

On top of the TdF frame is oddly small (maybe for stiffness...?) with a very short seat post tube (again, something like 30mm shorter than that on the CdF) upon which I’m not keen aesthetically.

Somewhat interestingly the current model year variants have changed a fair bit (for better or worse) with geometry being pulled a lot closer to that of the CdF – while it’s all gone in the right directions the reach is still more than the CdF / I’d like at 390mm. I wonder if they’re reluctant to go shorter because of toe overlap...?

Anyway, I’m not buying a current-spec one as they’ve committed the ultimate sin and gone to a 2x groupset (on a bloody tourer!), and there’s not much used about it seems.


I also had a better look at the Fuji Touring Disc. This appears to have the same frame geometry as my beloved Touring which fits me very well with its 377mm reach and 600mm stack giving a nice relaxed ride with a 100mm stem. The price for this however is occasional toe-strikes on the front guard, although these aren’t the end of the world..

Other niceties include the proper curved, lugged fork and flat-mount callipers (which look a lot cleaner and are less obstructive when mounting mudguard).

On the down-side the chainstays are 440mm so potentially still restrictive / of marginal viability re. Derailleur clearance, while the disc variant apparently only comes with drops so those would need replacing; although this wouldn’t be the end of the world.

I’ve had a cursory look at Ridgeback stuff; perhaps a later Disc-equipped variant of the Panorama might be worth a look, however they seem think on the ground. The Expedition looks nice although I’m not really sold on the 26” wheels unless they allow really fat tyres; which the max of 45mm isn’t really...

I’ve also investigated a few more left-field choices; the Jamis Aurora Elite looks nice bit stays are too short and geometry too road-focussed.

Everything from Surly is out since they seem to love frames with silly-long reach and low stack – totally the opposite to what I require.


All of this is slightly undermined by my deep-down hankering for something with fat (47mm+) 650b wheels to take the edge off the increasingly crap roads around here, however since this is a fairly recent trend the chances of finding something used at a reasonable cost is unlikely.

The search continues...