Red Arrows to Fly Foreign Built / Designed Aircraft?

[Illaveago]

I thought I would pose this question!
Is it possible that the powers that be will decide to go for a foreign designed / built aircraft rather than something that was designed and built here?
There isn't much time left as the Red Arrow Hawks are due to retire by 2030.
There are reports on the net that BAE are having talks with Boeing and Saab about their trainer. What I don't understand is why haven't BAE been working on an improved Hawk knowing that the planes will soon be running out of their sell by date? The Americans have been making a newer version of the Hawk called the Goshawk for some years now. It seems that management have been asleep again!

 

[Drago]

What I don't understand is why haven't BAE been working on an improved Hawk knowing that the planes will soon be running out of their sell by date?

Because BAE cant afford a speculative project on their own, and the MoD haven't made any moves to bank role such a program.

The Government have made noises about using the new Aeralis modular fighter-trainer, but that seems very unlikely to be ready before the Hawks are forced to retire, if it ever actually flies at all.

There were noises a year of so back about acquiring some low-hoirs F16s the Netherlands were looking to sell, which would have been ideal- single engined, robust, agile, relatively low per-hour costs by modern standards, excellent parts supply...but having tested the waters by leaking the idea the backlash was considerable. The detractors had a point, but the reality is there is no UK built replacement liable to be ready in time and/or cost effective.

So my guess - and it is just a guess - that if they continue to perform much past 2030 it will be in F16s, which are two-a-penny all over the place.

There are other light jet trainers from the likes of Leonardo or KAI, but is the support going to be there in the long term if they saddle themselves with a fleet of unique new aircraft not used elsewhere in the RAF? Also procurement etc will be eye-watering compared to just buying decent and very widely available used alternatives.

I'm sure whatever happens the Government and MOD procurement will do their best to eff it up royally. Much depends perhaps on whether they replace the RA fleet in isolation, or the RA instead use whatever comes along later to replaces the wider jet trainer fleet. The latter scenario may push the RA fleet beyond its lifespan, so may not be viable but that would not stop the MoD sinking money into life-extension upgrades that would cost more and take longer than simply buying someone else's low hours used alternative.

Personally I'm not fussed. The British aircraft industry as we knew it is long dead. Foreign made aircraft are good enough for the defence of the nation, and while UK built jets would be lovely its become difficult and expensive to keep developing new planes for a very limited domestic market. Im sure foreign jets would,d be equally good at showing off the skill of British pilots, just so long as they're not MIGs.

Who knows? Doubtless it'll be a mess.

 

[Jameshow]

Because BAE cant afford a speculative project on their own, and the MoD haven't made any moves to bank role such a program.

The Government have made noises about using the new Aeralis modular fighter-trainer, but that seems very unlikely to be ready before the Hawks are forced to retire, if it ever actually flies at all.

There were noises a year of so back about acquiring some low-hoirs F16s the Netherlands were looking to sell, which would have been ideal- single engined, robust, agile, relatively low per-hour costs by modern standards, excellent parts supply...but having tested the waters by leaking the idea the backlash was considerable. The detractors had a point, but the reality is there is no UK built replacement liable to be ready in time and/or cost effective.

So my guess - and it is just a guess - that if they continue to perform much past 2030 it will be in F16s, which are two-a-penny all over the place.

There are other light jet trainers from the likes of Leonardo or KAI, but is the support going to be there in the long term if they saddle themselves with a fleet of unique new aircraft not used elsewhere in the RAF? Also procurement etc will be eye-watering compared to just buying decent and very widely available used alternatives.

I'm sure whatever happens the Government and MOD procurement will do their best to eff it up royally. Much depends perhaps on whether they replace the RA fleet in isolation, or the RA instead use whatever comes along later to replaces the wider jet trainer fleet. The latter scenario may push the RA fleet beyond its lifespan, so may not be viable but that would not stop the MoD sinking money into life-extension upgrades that would cost more and take longer than simply buying someone else's low hours used alternative.

Personally I'm not fussed. The British aircraft industry as we knew it is long dead. Foreign made aircraft are good enough for the defence of the nation, and while UK built jets would be lovely its become difficult and expensive to keep developing new planes for a very limited domestic market. Im sure foreign jets would,d be equally good at showing off the skill of British pilots, just so long as they're not MIGs.

Who knows? Doubtless it'll be a mess.

F16 would be ace much more capable aircraft than the hawk?!

 

[Drago]

F16 would be ace much more capable aircraft than the hawk?!

I guess if it went to war it would be militarily a more useful jet,with a wider range of roles, abilities, and range. Not to mention being able to pick up the General Dynamics catalogue and having your parts delivered next day.

The Hawk has limited ground attack and air combat ability, and British industry would take an age to tool up and put the parts pipeline on a war footing. Hell, theyre cannibalising Hawks to keep the better ones in the air as it is.

The big overriding problem is things have become a bit like NASA, which doesn't really give much of a fig about putting humans into space but operates as a giant employment programme, hence dragging out relatively straightforward projects for decades. And so it is with with the Brirish military aircraft industry - its so far gone and takes an age to do anything useful and costs many, many times more than buying someone else's product, its only useful function now to keep an ever decreasing pool of talent in employment. Probably political to go beyond that into the whys and wherefores.

I say buy some cheap F16s, slap some Rolls Royce engines in them to support British industry and fly the flag. The downside is British industry would take too long and go five times over budget in doing so, thus making the idea pointless, and the MoD wou,d let them get away with it.

 

[Pblakeney]

Designing and building planes purely for propaganda seems a waste of money when there are shortages all around.
Use something readily available.

 

[Drago]

Unless someone with some stones makes a decision quickly theyre going to be seriously stuffed...

The red is the percentage lifespan remaining for each jet, and in an ideal world you dont want to go below 25% for all sorts of reasons. Certainly if we went to war and these jets were kitted for combat work XX 325 and 177 would not ordinary now be considered for such use. Mind you, if things got so desperate that we were falling back on the Hawk then such worries about combat manoeuvring stresses with a payload would likely be the last thing to worry about.

 

[Illaveago]

The thing about the Red Arrows is that they go around the world doing displays. This is advertising for British industry and shows what we are capable of making plus demonstrating our planes for possible customers. 1,000 Hawks have been sold around the world to foreign customers. If we were to use foreign made aircraft it would be advertising for foreign competition and a huge negative for British industry giving the impression that we can't make anything anymore. It would also be a huge kick in the teeth for British workers.

 

[Pblakeney]

The thing about the Red Arrows is that they go around the world doing displays. This is advertising for British industry and shows what we are capable of making plus demonstrating our planes for possible customers. 1,000 Hawks have been sold around the world to foreign customers. If we were to use foreign made aircraft it would be advertising for foreign competition and a huge negative for British industry giving the impression that we can't make anything anymore. It would also be a huge kick in the teeth for British workers.

It might also be the wake up call that we don't have an empire any more and have basically been punching above our weight for decades now.

 

[wiggydiggy]

Whilst I'd certainly like a British design, or at least a European rather than US one (for various NACA reasons ) at the moment there is no British jet in development that will fly in time to fulfil the role.

RAF Will Open Competition to Replace Hawk T1 and T2 Jets - there is one British jet in development, and the RAF are interested, but a prototype has yet to fly though wind tunnel testing has taken place.

 

[Illaveago]

It might also be the wake up call that we don't have an empire any more and have basically been punching above our weight for decades now.

Maybe it is because we didn't support our old colonies and allowed America to colonies them that we have lost a lot of trade. We still have some natural resources but can't use them because of Net Zero.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Surely the question should be what trainer aircraft do the RAF use to train their pilots?

Red arrows are just window dressing.

 

[Illaveago]

Whilst I'd certainly like a British design, or at least a European rather than US one (for various NACA reasons ) at the moment there is no British jet in development that will fly in time to fulfil the role.

RAF Will Open Competition to Replace Hawk T1 and T2 Jets - there is one British jet in development, and the RAF are interested, but a prototype has yet to fly though wind tunnel testing has taken place.

It is amazing how America can make their aircraft go on much longer than ours? We sold off our Harriers about 12 years ago whilst the Spanish and Italians still have theirs. I think the Americans may have stopped using theirs now.

 

[Illaveago]

Surely the question should be what trainer aircraft do the RAF use to train their pilots?

Red arrows are just window dressing.

The Red Arrows were used for advertising our industries but they would be pointless if they used foreign planes. They were also used to attract recruits.

 

[Dogtrousers]

The Red Arrows were used for advertising our industries but they would be pointless if they used foreign planes. They were also used to attract recruits.

Which underlines my point. They are a secondary use of trainer aircraft.

 

[fossyant]

Stick them in some Eurofighters. Now that would be a display.