Replacement Gas boiler - which option

[Night Train]

I had a cylinder, electric as no gas supply. It wasn't much good for my lifestyle so when I had gas installed I went for a combi, a big one.
It meant that I could have hot water on demand at mains pressure as much or as little as I needed.
It allowed for my variable lifestyle and meant that I only heated the water I used.

 

[Hacienda71]

I went down the combi route so i could have unlimited hot water and a decent shower upstairs as the old header tank was not high enough above the shower head to afford decent pressure. I love my new combi. The one query I still have is if there is any form of solar hot water possibilities with a combi because you can't feed solar heated water back in to the system like you would with a cylinder.

 

[ACS]

What do you mean by expired??? Have you been told this or has it broken or been condemned??? I work for a major gas company. That said, I admit I don't know much about boilers but I would you get an independent opinion, rather than the opinion of someone from your gas supplier who i think will do/say anything to make a sale. i don't think 20 years is old for a boiler so be careful you're not being ripped off and Combi boilers aren't always that powerful.

My mum was told by British Gas that their boiler was obsolete and they could no longer get parts for it, so recommended she replaced it. They charged my mum £1500 for a new boiler which would be a wall boiler so would free up the space where the standing boiler would be.

Besides the fact that an independent adviser then told her after that it was bollocks about it being obsolete and he would have no problem getting parts for the old one, they have had all of these problems with the new one:

1. it keeps breaking down.
2. it didn't free up the floor space where the standing one was. They had to leave all the pipework there because for some technical reason it couldn't be taken out. so my dad had to build a cupboard there to hide it.
3. They tried to reroute the pipe up the wall and across the ceiling but luckily my mom came home from work early and had a mental. Then after some arguments with the workmen and her threatening to halt the work and stop the cheques, they decided it would be possible to bury the pipework in the wall after all.
4. They went on the monthly payment scheme where they promise to come out and fix problems in 24 hours. After 3 years of having it regularly serviced it went kapoot. they came out and said a plate was corroded on the back of the boiler and condemned it. They then said that although they had the plate in stock, they had no-one to fit it for 2 weeks, so no hot water or heating for two weeks despite them complaining everyday. When a new gas fitter came out to finally fit the plate he told my mum and dad there was NEVER a plate on there (this had been missed during 3 years of servicing!) and that basically carbon monoxide had been leaking into the house for 3 years. Also the outlet pipe was in the wrong place because we basically walk out the back door into the fumes!

My mum and dad never had problems with the old boiler and it was over 25 years old. British Gas lied to them that their boiler was obsolete to get their business and they've been stuck with a problematic boiler ever since. Just because they don't make them anymore, or there are new styles, doesn't mean the parts are unavailable.

Basically, if your boiler isn't broken or hasn't been condemned and you have it serviced regularly, then there is no reason why you need to change it at this time. If you've got any more concerns, get some independent people (registered "gas safe") to come in an assess it.

If they have condemned it and say they can't get parts, phone an independent "gas safe" fitter first to see what he says.

Thanks for this.

Expired, the hot water side of the system works but can be a bit temperamental, the central heating part refuses to function.

The first thing I did was ask gas fitter to come out and assess it for me. Independent, recommended to me by a very tight fisted landlord I have worked for in the past. The fitter while fully qualified does not deal with the sale or installation of domestic units, just repair, so he had nothing to sell me. I have been advised that the baffles have burnt out and the heating pump is 'suspect'. Given the age of the unit it was his opinion was to replace. He did not point me in the direction of anyone or any company. Took 3 quotes 2 local companies and British Gas, hence my question.

 

[slowmotion]

Phew! that did puzzle me..

We got a quote from British Gas but only for a laugh. Our one-man-band installer did a superb job and the main reason we scrapped the boiler was because our system was a direct cylinder and fantastically unreliable. It was lovely to see all those unnecessary pipes and tanks sent for scrap.

WRT to pressure, I like the French system where the hot water is fed at mains pressure. No mains gas unfortunately so it's all electric.

Look on the bright side, your French electricity is probably about 85% nuclear.

 

[ACS]

two questions.

a) How far is the water level in the tank above the highest shower head?

b) How reliable is your mains water pressure? (We could go postcode about this, but that would be prying).

a. The tank is just above the shower head. The shower is electric.

b. not the foggiest.

 

[Night Train]

The one query I still have is if there is any form of solar hot water possibilities with a combi because you can't feed solar heated water back in to the system like you would with a cylinder.

One way to do this is to have a tank that solar heated and then to pipe that water through the combi as pre-heated water. It would have to be a mains pressure tank to do this. Possible but a little costly.
I think there are complete systems that are designed to pre-heat in this way.

 

[Archie_tect]

Keep the hot water tank and use a 95% efficiency SEEBUK 'A' rated gas boiler but not a combi as solar never works well with combis..... when you do go for a new hot water tank fit one with a secondary dual coil so that you can retrofit solar hot water in future.

 

[slowmotion]

Central heating and Domestic Hot Water (DHW) are two different issues. The combi lobby makes a big thing about only heating the DHW that you use, and that you will avoid "standing losses" from a hot water cylinder (this being energy that is lost as the hot water inevitably cools in the cylinder). A typical modern cylinder which is quite well foam-lagged loses about 2.5 kWh per day if it is about 120 litres capacity. What the combi people fail to tell you is that whenever you turn on a hot tap or whatever, the boiler starts up to meet demand. The sequence is simple. The combi detects a demand, and turns on the gas supply, a few seconds later it ignites the gas and the heating process begins. This is the same with any boiler, combi or not. The problem is that every time you wash your hands for ten seconds with combi heated-hot water the few seconds of pre-ignition gas is wasted. With a conventional system, the hot water boiler activity is just controlled by the cylinder thermostat which trips the boiler far less frequently and pre-ignition gas is wasted far less.

Re-heat times for hot water cylinders are pretty fast these days. About 20 minutes for a 115 litre cylinder and a 20 kW boiler is my best guess.

It is a lot more complicated than this. It depends on your pattern of DHW use, and your home. If you have electric showers, no bath, and a cold feed dishwasher and washing machine, you probably have no need for hot water from a boiler/combi apart from the odd handwash.

Nothing is that simple, alas.

 

[Globalti]

My mum and dad never had problems with the old boiler and it was over 25 years old. British Gas lied to them that their boiler was obsolete to get their business and they've been stuck with a problematic boiler ever since. Just because they don't make them anymore, or there are new styles, doesn't mean the parts are unavailable.

NEVER accept an offer from BG to come and check your old boiler; they will condemn it automatically.

We nearly fell into that trap but sussed them just before they came and cancelled the visit.

 

[asterix]

Look on the bright side, your French electricity is probably about 85% nuclear.

Have you seen how many wind farms they have in France? And building more all the time. If you see a rotor blade in transit they are a) holding up the traffic for miles and b) absolutely ginormously big..

(Not to mention household grants for solar panels)

 

[ACS]

Central heating and Domestic Hot Water (DHW) are two different issues. The combi lobby makes a big thing about only heating the DHW that you use, and that you will avoid "standing losses" from a hot water cylinder (this being energy that is lost as the hot water inevitably cools in the cylinder). A typical modern cylinder which is quite well foam-lagged loses about 2.5 kWh per day if it is about 120 litres capacity. What the combi people fail to tell you is that whenever you turn on a hot tap or whatever, the boiler starts up to meet demand. The sequence is simple. The combi detects a demand, and turns on the gas supply, a few seconds later it ignites the gas and the heating process begins. This is the same with any boiler, combi or not. The problem is that every time you wash your hands for ten seconds with combi heated-hot water the few seconds of pre-ignition gas is wasted. With a conventional system, the hot water boiler activity is just controlled by the cylinder thermostat which trips the boiler far less frequently and pre-ignition gas is wasted far less.

Re-heat times for hot water cylinders are pretty fast these days. About 20 minutes for a 115 litre cylinder and a 20 kW boiler is my best guess.

It is a lot more complicated than this. It depends on your pattern of DHW use, and your home. If you have electric showers, no bath, and a cold feed dishwasher and washing machine, you probably have no need for hot water from a boiler/combi apart from the odd handwash.

Nothing is that simple, alas.

Again lots to think about and as you say nothing is simple.

Thanks to everyone for their advice, guidance and views never thought that my domestic situation would be of such interest.

Have you been to my house? We have an electric shower, no bath, cold water feed dishwasher / washing machine and we are both out at work all day. Please excuse my lack of comprehension (feeling very stupid) you are in fact advocating the removal of the tank and going for a combi boiler? Because of our light use of hot water, it is more cost effective to heat on demand rather heat and store for later use. Or have I got it @rse about face.

Living in Scotland I do not think the solar option is a reality.

 

[Ticktockmy]

Here in Crawley the council are replacing the Kitchens and gas boilers in the older properties, when my turn come, a team of designers arrived and we discussed what style kitchen we should have, when it come to the matter of central heating and hot water, I told them I was quite happy for my old system to remain in place, to which I was told that my old system was going to be replaced by a modern and far superior system.

So when the time come the destruction gang arrived and ripped out the kitchen, and the hot system, just leaving the Radiators and feed pipe work in place.

By the time the Cowboys had finished, I had a very nice kitchen, and a wonderful new heating and hot water system in place, only problem is its not fit for purpose, under the old system if I wanted a bath I just turned on the tap and in a few minutes a nice deep bath of hot water.

Now I get a trickle of hot water if I am lucky which takes 30 minutes to fill the bath, to heat the radiators will take for every, under the old system everything was nice and toasty in about 20 minutes, now its like 2 hours. If my partner turns on the tap in the kitchen whilst I am running a bath, then the whole system shuts down as it cannot cope with the demand.

I have had the company who fitted it for the council back so many times, and all they do is himm and haw, the council sent a independent inspector round and he just looked at it an wrote a list as long as your arm why it was not working, and was in two minds to condemn it there and then.

So much for a Combo boiler, but what irrates me most is the noise, my old system just sat quietly doing its thing, the combo boiler spends it time when the heating on roaring away on the kitchen wall and can be felt all through the house.

So that my experiences with combo boilers, my brother who only had a small one bedroom flat had no problems with his, so it seems they are ok for a small system but not a large one.

 

[dellzeqq]

a. The tank is just above the shower head. The shower is electric.

b. not the foggiest.

if the tank is just above the showerhead then you would benefit from employing mains pressure for the shower but (and this is a big but) the water companies are reducing pressure to the back edge of pavement in order to reduce leakage. This means that if you're on a hill, or at the top of a large house, or on the second floor and up of a block of flats your mains pressure may drop to zero at certain points of the day IF you live in a less than fancy area, because, surprise surprise the water companies are not reducing the pressure to fancy postcodes. Hope this helps.

And this may be Ticktockmy's problem. If it is then the landlord should be fitting a booster system. Which, it must be said, is complicated.

 

[snailracer]

Eliminating the hot water cylinder in a conventional boiler system reduces standing losses. However, in order to overcome their feeble output and reduce noise, combi boilers are often found with "heat stores", either inside them or an external "megflo" tank, which themselves have standing losses, much like a conventional hot water cylinder, so I can't see that there would be any advantage. If you want to reduce standing losses, fit a water cylinder jacket.

Whether standing losses are really a waste is also questionable. To me, an airing cupboard is useful. Also, in the UK, heating is needed most of the year - a bit of heat leaking from the hot water cylinder helps keeps upstairs warm.

Combi boilers are also less reliable than conventional or condensing boilers, which have fewer parts to go wrong. Also, if the gas supply fails, a conventional hotwater cylinder can run off the electricity, so you will still have hot water.

Unless your gas bill is massive, I would claim it is doubtful whether a combi boiler would save you any money - much more expensive to buy, more expensive to service, more likely to need repair/replacement.

The government would like to see conventional boilers replaced, however they don't have to foot the bills, or deal with the feeble hot water output. Also, most old conventional boilers were of the non-condensing type, which deserve to be replaced, but with a much more efficient condensing boiler, not an expensive, unreliable combi.

 

[Brains]

Are you a bath person or a shower person ?

If bath, then keep the tank.