Making amorous advances to an irate WVM may not be the most successful approach!
Self defence
- Thread starter ComedyPilot
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Making amorous advances to an irate WVM may not be the most successful approach!
Slightly OT and may be an Urban Myth......
There was a story going round in the late 70's about a New York cyclist who got fed up with cars pulling out in front of him - so he drew a pistol and shot out the front wheel of the next car to do so!
THe judge apparently did not agree taht this was legitimate self defence
More worrying is this thread from a US Cycling site... How many of you carry a gun as part of your cycling equipment?
Whilst in some cases it is tongue in cheek, a lot are serious, on some US sites the gun debate ranks with H*lm*ts here!
Having had two large guys attempt to mug me while I was on the bike (did not actually manage to steal anything so it was more like GBH in the end) I can recommend that it is best to keep the most damagable areas of ones self away from the boots (a helmet helps in this instance) and make lots of noise.
Most driver cyclist interactions are just a lot of noise - The problem is when it does go above that you/I are not really expecting that and do not have time to react defensively - as a portley middle aged geezer I find it is best not to get involved in the first place - there are a lot of nutters/people with anger management problems out there who will look for any excuse to have a bit of a bundle/assert their macho-ness with someone - on the rare occasions that I have encountered a noisy belligerent motorist I have immediately invoked my policy of spatial seperation.
Most driver cyclist interactions are just a lot of noise - The problem is when it does go above that you/I are not really expecting that and do not have time to react defensively - as a portley middle aged geezer I find it is best not to get involved in the first place - there are a lot of nutters/people with anger management problems out there who will look for any excuse to have a bit of a bundle/assert their macho-ness with someone - on the rare occasions that I have encountered a noisy belligerent motorist I have immediately invoked my policy of spatial seperation.
Flying_Monkey
Recyclist
- Location
- Odawa
Any idea that you're going to be better off 'fighting back' in a case like the Ben's is pretty silly, not to say potentially more dangerous. I studied judo for many years, then aikido and latterly kung-fu. Would I 'use' any of these in a situation like this? Absolutely not.
And BTW, I am not commenting on Ben's case here, because it's clear it was getting to the point of self-preservation, but in general I try to avoid shouting at people or especially hitting people's vehicles as they take it very personally and it can escalate already dangerous situations. And in many cases, it isn't going to be you who gets the end product of whatever road rage you've helped kick off but some other unfortunate cyclist or pedestrian etc. Too many cyclists I have seen, especially in big cities, seem to do these things as a matter of course. It just increases the general levels of anger and frustration.
Calm confidence, a smile, and patience are the main tools of the safe cyclist IMHO. And that incidentally was pretty much the first thing my aikido teacher ever said to me too (just before demonstrating how he could use one finger to make me submit in great pain!).
And BTW, I am not commenting on Ben's case here, because it's clear it was getting to the point of self-preservation, but in general I try to avoid shouting at people or especially hitting people's vehicles as they take it very personally and it can escalate already dangerous situations. And in many cases, it isn't going to be you who gets the end product of whatever road rage you've helped kick off but some other unfortunate cyclist or pedestrian etc. Too many cyclists I have seen, especially in big cities, seem to do these things as a matter of course. It just increases the general levels of anger and frustration.
Calm confidence, a smile, and patience are the main tools of the safe cyclist IMHO. And that incidentally was pretty much the first thing my aikido teacher ever said to me too (just before demonstrating how he could use one finger to make me submit in great pain!).
Simba
Specialized Allez 24 Rider
- Location
- Tottington - Lancashire
I am a 2nd dan black belt in Shotokan Karate so I know how to handle myself and yes I have used it successfully, but not as a cyclist, never needed to.
downfader
extimus uero philosophus
- Location
- 'ampsheeeer
I think the thing with actual physical fighting is that it takes a) confidence b) experience and c) balls. Most people dont have the balls to go that far because they lack d) a natural fighting instict or b).
Am I babbling..?
Right, I'm off out!
Am I babbling..?
Right, I'm off out!
SquareDaff
Über Member
- Location
- Doncaster, South Yorkshire
I have 2 black belts in karate - one in Shotokan and another in the "now defunct" E.C.K.A.
It depends on your attitude - my own is that I'll only ever use it if I'm attacked first! In the meantime I'll try and talk my way out of a situation. To date (touch wood), I've never had to resort to using my fighting "skills".
If you go looking for trouble it will invariably find you!! Dodge it whenever and however you can!
It depends on your attitude - my own is that I'll only ever use it if I'm attacked first! In the meantime I'll try and talk my way out of a situation. To date (touch wood), I've never had to resort to using my fighting "skills".
If you go looking for trouble it will invariably find you!! Dodge it whenever and however you can!
decca234uk
New Member
- Location
- Leeds
I spent a few years doing Akido and I'd consider some basic self defence skills an essential part of a skill set for life. If the time comes when you have no choice but to defend yourself or your family then you should at least put up some resistance and make it harder for an assailant. As for cycling though your first line of defence is in the way you handle the situation. I've found that avoiding swearing and staying calm and dealing respectfully with an annoyed motorist can take the heat out of most situations and avoid an escalation.
Many motorists are unaware of the problems cyclists face and may misunderstand a cyclist's manouver. A lot of motorists, for example, believe cycle lanes are compulsory for cyclists. If a cyclist chooses not to ride in one for some reason, maybe it's full of potholes or strewn with glass, they don't understand this and may get annoyed.
My advice when confronted by an enraged motorists is to stay calm and deal logically with his complaint. If you made a mistake appologise, if he is complaining about some manouver you made explain why you made it. One thing I see sometimes is cyclists shouting at drivers, I was behind a cyclist once who called a driver a "****ing self-gratification artist" because he thought the driver had passed too close to him, the driver ignored him, someone else may not have. If after all you attempts at diplomacy fail and you are attacked, you have two choices; get off your bike and fight like a mad dog or allow yourself to become a punch bag. You have to choose.
Many motorists are unaware of the problems cyclists face and may misunderstand a cyclist's manouver. A lot of motorists, for example, believe cycle lanes are compulsory for cyclists. If a cyclist chooses not to ride in one for some reason, maybe it's full of potholes or strewn with glass, they don't understand this and may get annoyed.
My advice when confronted by an enraged motorists is to stay calm and deal logically with his complaint. If you made a mistake appologise, if he is complaining about some manouver you made explain why you made it. One thing I see sometimes is cyclists shouting at drivers, I was behind a cyclist once who called a driver a "****ing self-gratification artist" because he thought the driver had passed too close to him, the driver ignored him, someone else may not have. If after all you attempts at diplomacy fail and you are attacked, you have two choices; get off your bike and fight like a mad dog or allow yourself to become a punch bag. You have to choose.
ColinJ
Puzzle game procrastinator!
- Location
- Todmorden - Yorks/Lancs border
Many, many years ago I worked in the same factory as someone who seemed to get a lot of pleasure out of winding me up. I'm a mild-mannered person by nature, but I do eventually snap if pushed far enough.
This guy had sabotaged my work several times a day for a week, he had taunted me about an ex girlfriend, he had humiliated me in front of others.
He finally got me to snap and I picked up a hammer and ran towards him with it. He smiled and said "Come on son, are you gonna just wave that at me or are you actually going to use it?" He had a reputation for violence and I realised that one of two things was going to happen unless I backed down immediately - (1) I would kill him and then have to answer for that. (2) He would maim or kill me. So, I dropped the hammer and walked out of the factory...
What is going to happen if we are out on a ride and get into a fight with someone who is definitely armed with a very powerful weapon (a vehicle), and may also be armed with a knife, a gun, a screwdriver, a broken bottle (whatever)? The best outcome we could hope for is that we do enough damage to them that they can't hurt us, and then hope that they and the law don't catch up with us later. No thanks!
I decided long ago that I would only use violence in extreme circumstances i.e. to protect myself or a vulnerable third party, and if it came to that, I would only try to disable my opponent with a heavy blow to an ankle or a kneecap. With luck, that would allow enough time to make my/our escape.
As for the martial arts training... Somebody else I worked with was about 5 inches shorter than me and a much slighter build. We were having a conversation in a lunch break and he mentioned that he had studied Aikido for a number of years. He didn't look like he could fight his way out of a wet paper bag so I laughed at him. He didn't want to demonstrate his skills, but I insisted. He reluctantly agreed to show me how he could defend himself just using the thumb and forefinger of his right hand. Ho ho, we'll see about that! I made a mock lunge at him and about half a second later I was on my knees begging him to let go! Somehow he had got hold of one of my fingers and twisted it in such a way that the pain was disabling, but the finger was not damaged. Pretty impressive!
This guy had sabotaged my work several times a day for a week, he had taunted me about an ex girlfriend, he had humiliated me in front of others.
He finally got me to snap and I picked up a hammer and ran towards him with it. He smiled and said "Come on son, are you gonna just wave that at me or are you actually going to use it?" He had a reputation for violence and I realised that one of two things was going to happen unless I backed down immediately - (1) I would kill him and then have to answer for that. (2) He would maim or kill me. So, I dropped the hammer and walked out of the factory...
What is going to happen if we are out on a ride and get into a fight with someone who is definitely armed with a very powerful weapon (a vehicle), and may also be armed with a knife, a gun, a screwdriver, a broken bottle (whatever)? The best outcome we could hope for is that we do enough damage to them that they can't hurt us, and then hope that they and the law don't catch up with us later. No thanks!
I decided long ago that I would only use violence in extreme circumstances i.e. to protect myself or a vulnerable third party, and if it came to that, I would only try to disable my opponent with a heavy blow to an ankle or a kneecap. With luck, that would allow enough time to make my/our escape.
As for the martial arts training... Somebody else I worked with was about 5 inches shorter than me and a much slighter build. We were having a conversation in a lunch break and he mentioned that he had studied Aikido for a number of years. He didn't look like he could fight his way out of a wet paper bag so I laughed at him. He didn't want to demonstrate his skills, but I insisted. He reluctantly agreed to show me how he could defend himself just using the thumb and forefinger of his right hand. Ho ho, we'll see about that! I made a mock lunge at him and about half a second later I was on my knees begging him to let go! Somehow he had got hold of one of my fingers and twisted it in such a way that the pain was disabling, but the finger was not damaged. Pretty impressive!
JoysOfSight
Active Member
I've never really considered getting any fighting skills because, in a nutshell, I think it might make me more likely to get into fights! For example, if an angry driver jawed me, leaving me standing, I'd like to think at the moment I would not try to wade into him however angry I was. If I thought I was a bit handy, maybe I would, and they'd have a knife ready in their other hand...
The closest I've come to a physical was when I was cut up by a gesticulating driver who I then gave a 'rubber lip' sign to. He stopped but didn't open the door, and foolishly I passed closely enough to him that he was able to grab my sleeve. It then escalated and he started trying to get out, I slammed the door on him and then wheeled the bike away the way I'd come. Luckily he didn't follow. But I should have either snapped his elbow when he grabbed me or high-tailed it, that was the opportunity to close it down either way.
Perhaps one day I will swear at a motorist who will get out and try to beat me to death, perhaps not. But enough squaddies and police and bouncers are crippled by random passers by that it makes me doubt the absolute value of any training I might do anyway.
The closest I've come to a physical was when I was cut up by a gesticulating driver who I then gave a 'rubber lip' sign to. He stopped but didn't open the door, and foolishly I passed closely enough to him that he was able to grab my sleeve. It then escalated and he started trying to get out, I slammed the door on him and then wheeled the bike away the way I'd come. Luckily he didn't follow. But I should have either snapped his elbow when he grabbed me or high-tailed it, that was the opportunity to close it down either way.
Perhaps one day I will swear at a motorist who will get out and try to beat me to death, perhaps not. But enough squaddies and police and bouncers are crippled by random passers by that it makes me doubt the absolute value of any training I might do anyway.
SquareDaff
Über Member
- Location
- Doncaster, South Yorkshire
Not if you're taught properly (and that's the key). I soon learnt that no matter how good I became there was always someone better! As mentioned in previous posts, the people that are really good have no need to show it all the time.
clarion
Guru
- Location
- Exiled from Hyperborea
I've not got any training in martial arts, but I do have training in NVDA, which comes in handy. With a bit of customer service nous, and a smattering of psychology, it has served me well since I decided abruptly to change from someone always up for a fight into someone who never fought. In the meantime, I've spent time working as a bouncer non-violently.
As an asthmatic middle aged man, there's not much point in my getting involved in a fight. I know lots of ways of avoiding one, though, including riding away at speed.
As an asthmatic middle aged man, there's not much point in my getting involved in a fight. I know lots of ways of avoiding one, though, including riding away at speed.
downfader
extimus uero philosophus
- Location
- 'ampsheeeer
As for the martial arts training... Somebody else I worked with was about 5 inches shorter than me and a much slighter build. We were having a conversation in a lunch break and he mentioned that he had studied Aikido for a number of years. He didn't look like he could fight his way out of a wet paper bag so I laughed at him. He didn't want to demonstrate his skills, but I insisted. He reluctantly agreed to show me how he could defend himself just using the thumb and forefinger of his right hand. Ho ho, we'll see about that! I made a mock lunge at him and about half a second later I was on my knees begging him to let go! Somehow he had got hold of one of my fingers and twisted it in such a way that the pain was disabling, but the finger was not damaged. Pretty impressive!
I had a similar experience, but was the one with the thumb in my hand.
One of the lads at work (only 18) kept trying to play fight with me. Me being about 28 at the time was not really in the mood, etc etc, and I managed to pin him on the floor. My god did he cry a girl for about 10 seconds. 
I let him up and he begged me to show him how its done. I refused because a) I shouldnt have done it and b) I thought he'd hurt himself or another. As I walked off he went up to the special needs lad and said "Darren, let me try something out on you??!!" But as he approached Darren put him on the floor, again, said lad crying like a girl.
Darren was the regional Judo champ for the special needs group. Way more skilled/experienced than me.
No need to actually go to any classes, just watch this video.
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3K-mrlYG7Y
