Semi colons

[nigelnorris]

I struggle to understand the reluctance to Anglicise. I'm not in Italy, a panini to me is a bread roll, and I'll happily refer to more than one of them them as paninis. That's the general usage so if it causes you stress then I'm afrid that you are the one out of step. Likewise I don't go into cafés unless I'm in France, I usually go into cafes since that is generally what we get here in the UK, whatever FF might tell me.

Otherwise I might as well just take up speaking Latin, or whatever the roots of that were, and do the job properly.

 

[Dan B]

could[/I] use a comma:

Use them sparingly, less is more.

I am not at all sure that the comma is correct there: it definitely looks wrong. I think you need a conjunction ("as", "because", "for" etc) to connect the two clauses

@swee'pea99: Partridge ("Usage and Abusage") says "'firstly is inferior to first, even when secondly, thirdly, ... follow it" but doesn't say anything about why.

 

[User482]

I struggle to understand the reluctance to Anglicise. I'm not in Italy, a panini to me is a bread roll, and I'll happily refer to more than one of them them as paninis. That's the general usage so if it causes you stress then I'm afrid that you are the one out of step. Likewise I don't go into cafés unless I'm in France, I usually go into cafes since that is generally what we get here in the UK, whatever FF might tell me.

Otherwise I might as well just take up speaking Latin, or whatever the roots of that were, and do the job properly.

Yes, but not every English plural ends in "s", and the word is Italian, not English. I see "panini" used correctly as much as incorrectly, so you are wrong to suggest that the incorrect form is a general usage.

 

[swee'pea99]

I am not at all sure that the comma is correct there: it definitely looks wrong. I think you need a conjunction ("as", "because", "for" etc) to connect the two clauses

@swee'pea99: Partridge ("Usage and Abusage") says "'firstly is inferior to first, even when secondly, thirdly, ... follow it" but doesn't say anything about why.

Excellent! Some kind of backup - albeit thin...

As for t'other, on reflection I think you're right. Could it be that 'you can't use a comma to separate two parts of a sentence which could each be validly treated as a discrete sentence'? [Use them sparingly. Less is more.] (I was never taught any of this stuff...kind of picked it up thru' osmosis.)

 

[swee'pea99]

Yes, but not every English plural ends in "s", and the word is Italian, not English. I see "panini" used correctly as much as incorrectly, so you are wrong to suggest that the incorrect form is a general usage.

My gut instincts echo yours, but doesn't 'the word is Italian, not English' kind of beg a question? At what point does a word become 'English'? 'Bungalow', eg. Or cafe. This country is full of fry-up cafes, and none of them have accents. Is that wrong because 'the word is French'? Or is it perfectly ok, because although the French have a word - and theirs has an accent - English also has a word, which doesn't?

 

[nigelnorris]

Yes, but not every English plural ends in "s", and the word is Italian, not English. I see "panini" used correctly as much as incorrectly, so you are wrong to suggest that the incorrect form is a general usage.

No I'm not wrong, I just have an opinion that is different from yours.

 

[Yellow Fang]

do[/I] understand what's being said. All of it came about initially as an attempt to achieve exactly that: to enable us to express ideas and the like in ways that others would be able to understand. And while it's true that many ideas and the like can be expressed clearly with even the most basic punctuation (and, by the same token, vocabulary) the more complex the ideas, the more likely these more subtle 'tools' will prove helpful.

Top marks for using the term 'begs the question' correctly.

 

[Dan B]

I find this a dilemma. I don't want to want to use a comma because it's wrong; I don't want to use full stops because the two phrases are too closely connected, but I don't want to use a semicolon because that's being a smartypants.

Just for the record, I have never ever considered that a good reason to avoid the semicolon.

I bet you know what a gerund is as well.

 

[User482]

No I'm not wrong, I just have an opinion that is different from yours.

You suggested that the incorrect form was the general usage. It isn't - both forms are widely used.

 

[User482]

[quote name='swee'pea99']My gut instincts echo yours, but doesn't 'the word is Italian, not English' kind of beg a question? At what point does a word become 'English'? 'Bungalow', eg. Or cafe. This country is full of fry-up cafes, and none of them have accents. Is that wrong because 'the word is French'? Or is it perfectly ok, because although the French have a word - and theirs has an accent - English also has a word, which doesn't?[/QUOTE]

Good post. Maybe the question is "does the anglicisation add anything useful?". For example, a cafe is a different kind of establishment to a café, and is pronounced as "caff". A bungalow is a specific type of house. By contrast, the misuse of "panini" adds nothing to our language.

 

[nigelnorris]

You suggested that the incorrect form was the general usage. It isn't - both forms are widely used.

I presume you're just trolling now, that's a shame. Firstly your repetitive use of the word 'incorrect' without justification, you know very well that this is just shouting to be argued with. It's your opinion, not a fact. Secondly the general usage thing is so mind bogglingly trivial I can't imagine why you keep on throwing it up, you must have pedantry in the blood. Again it's a case of your opinion, which of course you are entitled to, but saying it over and over doesn't make it any more convincing.

 

[User482]

I presume you're just trolling now, that's a shame. Firstly your repetitive use of the word 'incorrect' without justification, you know very well that this is just shouting to be argued with. It's your opinion, not a fact. Secondly the general usage thing is so mind bogglingly trivial I can't imagine why you keep on throwing it up, you must have pedantry in the blood. Again it's a case of your opinion, which of course you are entitled to, but saying it over and over doesn't make it any more convincing.

It's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact. Both forms are widely used therefore you cannot argue that one form is the general usage. Both forms are in general use.

For someone who finds it all so trivial, I don't know why you're still arguing.

 

[nigelnorris]

It's not an opinion, it's a statement of fact. Both forms are widely used therefore you cannot argue that one form is the general usage. Both forms are in general use.

For someone who finds it all so trivial, I don't know why you're still arguing.

Because you're a troll, obviously too used to having the last word on everything. I'll know better than to give you pack space next time.

 

[User482]

Because you're a troll, obviously too used to having the last word on everything. I'll know better than to give you pack space next time.

A troll makes contentious statements for the sole purpose baiting other forum users. My statement was factual, so your accusation is without foundation.

If it has upset you in some way then you must be very easily upset.

 

[Yellow Fang]

Just for the record, I have never ever considered that a good reason to avoid the semicolon.

I bet you know what a gerund is as well.

I did know what a gerund was. Is it a word ending in 'ing', or is that a present participle?

Anyway, Kurt Vonnegut thought it was smartypants. This is what he said about them:

"If you really want to hurt your parents, and you don't have the nerve to be a homosexual, the least you can do is go into the arts. But do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites, standing for absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college."

Personally, I think he was a bit of an opinionated tit.

There's quite a good Guardian article on semicolons.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/04/france.britishidentity

This is what A.S.Byatt said about them:

"I would hate them to disappear. I write by rhythms, both the rhythm of the meaning and the rhythm of the - it's not exactly my spoken voice, it's the voice inside my head, and that needs a lot of different punctuation marks."

This is how I used to write my English essays at school and they always came back covered in red ink. That's why I wished they'd actually taught us the rules.