Shared Use Paths and School Children Congestion

[mgarl10024]

Hi all,

On my commute, I mainly stick to the provided shared use paths, however have found that they can get very congested with school children around school times. Whilst this is an irritation to me (it slows me down) I was more concerned about there being an accident, so I emailed Sustrans/BetterByBike and got some good responses which I thought might be of interest to people on here.

Sent to Sustrans and BetterByBike

Firstly, I’d just like to take the time to thank you for all that you have done for cycling in Bristol. I’m a comparatively new cyclist (having stopped cycling around my early teens), and this year have taken it back up again and am now commuting almost daily. :-)

I’m writing with respect to Bradley Stoke Way in Bristol. This road is a shared cyclist/pedestrian path (it’s quite wide), and is featured on both BetterByBike’s/South Glous Council’s and Sustran’s cycling maps. I’ve included a map below to point out the particular bit in question – running between Bailey’s Court Road and the new Tesco complex.

http://maps.google.c...038581&t=h&z=15

The issue I have with this particular section is that during my commute (approx 730-8am) the pavement is heavily used by school children walking to school. This is actually a very good thing (much better than them all being driven to school), but unfortunately they straddle the pavement 4 abreast and prevent anything getting through. Last week, I passed around 50 children in wide groups of 4 on that stretch alone, and whilst all of the children have been very respectful and move out of the way when a bell is sounded, it can be a little frustrating as it means slowing right down (which on a bit of a hilly climb is very unwelcome!). ;-)

However, of more concern, is the potential of an accident and that one of them may be hurt. I consider myself to be quite a slow cyclist – virtually every other cyclist overtakes me – but in the last week I’ve had:
- A child walking towards me, head down. I completely stopped and it wasn’t until he was about 1m from my handlebars that he looked up, saw me for the first time and gasped.
- A child walking towards me, head down, focused on a phone. Same as above – unaware until 1m away and I was completely stopped.
- A child randomly changing direction and walking out in front of me, causing me to brake.
- A child on a bike, cycling at walking pace with his friends, pulling out in front of me, causing me to brake.
- Etc.

With so many near misses, and noting that most other cyclists travel at greater speed than myself, I don’t think it will be long before there’s an accident.

It got me thinking what could be done, and I thought that perhaps
- I could start using the road – however it is such a fast road that I wouldn’t feel safe.
- The pavement could be painted like a cycle track – a white line down the middle, with bikes on one side, pedestrians on the other. It wont solve the problem, but may remind the children that they aren’t the only people using the path (and conversely it may remind very fast cyclists that the path isn’t just for them). This is also a very cheap solution.
- Extra signage could be installed, showing both pedestrians and bikes, again reminding the children.
- The local schools could be contacted to remind the children of other path users and the dangers of being oblivious to them.

I hope that this feedback is helpful and that it is taken in the spirit it is meant. Whilst being slowed down on a morning is a minor inconvenience, I’m writing more out of concern of a future accident. I welcome comments on the above, and have also emailed BetterByBike for their input.

Thanks in advance,

Response From BetterByBike:

Many thanks for your email. I'm very grateful that you've taken the time to write to us and highlight the problems you've identified. Often it's not until we're alerted to problems that we can do something about them. Thanks too for the solutions - you probably know this route better than we do (as you use it regularly) so it's handy to hear first-hand what improvements you would welcome.

I will pass your email on to my colleagues at South Gloucestershire council (at cycleforum@southglos.gov.uk) to consider what measures can be taken to improve the situation.

Kind regards

Response From Sustrans:

Thank you for your email. The link was installed by South Glos so I have asked them to have a look at different options following your comments. I will let you know any response that I get back. The shared use situation is a difficult one because studies in places such as the Netherlands have shown that this model works best and helps breed a culture of shared, valued space. However, it takes a while to move over to this way of thinking, plus younger people are not always quite so aware of the dangers they may face. I think a good starting point would be for the schools and parents to remind the children to be aware.

Kind regards

Response From South Glos Council:

I refer to your e-mail sent to Sustrans on 19th September concerning Bradley Stoke Way, (below), which has been forwarded to me for a response.

It would be interesting to know more details of your daily commute, as there may be an alternative route you could try, (although this does nothing to resolve your concerns about Bradley Stoke Way)!

You may be interested in Cycling City Route 3, (Parkway Station to Bradley Stoke) – details attached – which extends to Savages Wood Road roundabout / Bradley Stoke Leisure Centre. The off-carriageway sections of this route, (also alongside Bradley Stoke Way), are 3m wide with cycle symbols and shared use signing, (un-segregated). The route you indicate you on the west side of Bradley Stoke Way is too narrow to segregate users – for this a minimum total width of 4m is recommended – although there are very few shared use signs and no cycle symbols on the path.

There are some busier locations below 4m wide where segregating cyclists from pedestrians using a white line is advisable - such as certain sections of the A4174 ring road cycle path, (typically 3m wide). The wider section of path alongside Bradley Stoke Way, north west of the Brook Way roundabout, is also already segregated. However, if the path is less than 3m wide, (as it is to the south east of Brook Way), segregation is not normally a realistic option.

I think the vast majority of school children in the Bradley Stoke area are already aware that the paths are shared use - cycling levels amongst school children in Bradley Stoke are very high. I also think that school children, (in groups), would probably not be particularly likely to observe or comply with the markings / signing, if a segregation line was installed (!) In the long run, widening of the path could be the answer, (although there are plenty of cyclists who would still prefer to remain on the main carriageway).

In the meantime, although it would be possible to introduce one or two carefully sited cycle symbols on the path, on paths less than 3m wide this can falsely create an impression that cyclists have some kind of priority over other users. Alternatively, some additional shared use signs could be erected, mainly on existing lamp columns, to remind users that the path is available to pedestrians and cyclists alike. This sign, (Diag 956 in the Traffic Signs Regulations), is in very common use and is well recognised / understood. To do this, it would be appropriate to consider the entire length of Bradley Stoke Way - to ensure the signing and lining is consistent along its length. I will look into this to find out where any additional shared used signs are most needed.

Regards,

I'll update you as I get any further responses - comments welcome.

Thanks,

MG

 

[fossyant]

Slow Down ! Simples

Or use the road.

 

[marinyork]

Here's my response, but you probably won't like it. I had a look at Bradley Stoke Way on streetview. If it's as it was when that imagery was taken (it may have changed) then I disagree very strongly with the description about it being 'quite wide'. It would not be regarded so by any planner for what it's used for, they would absolutely laugh at someone saying that. Often stuff is like it is for legacy reasons and you have to make the best of how things are. If it's unchanged that's basically where your problem lies, it's simply miles too narrow. That's just how it is. That said it's not the best labelled of paths, but I'm sceptical whether better labelling would make much difference. School children have an absolute right to walk and amble along a narrow path to get home safely, there isn't anything particularly wrong with their behaviour. There may be an accident but you can only really worry about you.

There was a very similar scenario round here with ped traffic and 15 years later they upgraded the path so it was quite a bit wider. Before that they had complaints of this nature off both sides and they went mad with bits of paint (which makes very little difference). This is probably what will happen here, they will go crazy with paint, put up a few blue signs and in many years upgrade the path.

You think all of this as you're a new cyclist, over time your views will change. I once thought like you when I started. I'm really glad that you've used this facility to cycle and that one day it'll get upgraded as it did here. There isn't really a problem as such, the problem is expectations.

 

[campbellab]

Hilly? In Sadley Broke?

School kids are a particular nightmare on shared paths, but the Bradley Stoke lot are probably some of the best in the Bristol area. You should try the bristol to bath cyclepath when the local school gets kicked out, I even had my arse smacked... And I taught the buggers. Keep well clear on sports day!

Most pedestrians will take up the whole path if they are in a large enough group, kids seem to have less awareness of whats going on and speak really loudly so they don't hear anything. I'd get a good trinaling bell that you can get going from a good distance away.



Most of the other roads around there are 30 if you want to take a detour, and theres plenty of shared paths away from the road which are pretty quiet. Where about you coming from and to overall?

I cycled daily from Little Stoke to Easton, pretty pleasant commute overall.The response from South Glos council is pretty much spot on.

 

[summerdays]

Well done for contacting them, as unless people do it (and not in a ranty way that makes them completely switch off), they may not realise that some people are experiencing problems using the paths. I know the road, but not at rush-hour. I usually have my youngest to drop off at school first which means apart from a few occasions I miss the worst of the children on shared paths and only meet the late ones sauntering to various different schools.

I do have another question to do with shared paths and sign-age of them. Today I was going between two places that I don't normally do so not lost - I knew exactly where I was but sort of working out the way to get there, and I ended up finding myself on a shared path (that I hadn't realised was shared), at the bottom of the M32. What surprised me was the size of the signs...

I've managed to find one of them on streetview: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&s...=0C3bJQd5r_x9Ljmt8XF_og&cbp=12,250.51,,2,0.38

is there a minimum size for the signs?

 

[ComedyPilot]

Errrr.............you are on a bike.

The lane/path is congested with other road users.

Slow down/ring your bell/call a warning/stop/take another route/use the nice wide road.


Simples, innit, like?

 

[Glow worm]

Hi all,

On my commute, I mainly stick to the provided shared use paths, however have found that they can get very congested with school children around school times. Whilst this is an irritation to me (it slows me down) I was more concerned about there being an accident, so I emailed Sustrans/BetterByBike and got some good responses which I thought might be of interest to people on here.


I'll update you as I get any further responses - comments welcome.

Thanks,

MG

Hello MG. I have similar on my commute. I find slowing right down, a polite ring of the bell, and a smile works wonders and always a thanks as I pass by. I guess I hope that by showing them a bit of respect they may grow up respecting others too. Generally they're great and to be honest by the time I get to where they are I'm knackered anyway and don't mind slowing up a bit!

 

[HJ]

Shared Use Paths are just that Shared Use, you have to be prepared to slow down! You have no greater right then anyone else, you want to go faster, use the road...

 

[gavintc]

This has to be a wind up. A shared use path is busy during peak times? So what? You either acknowledge other people exist and have a reason to be using the path or find an alternative route. I really cannot understand what your concern is.

 

[marinyork]

is there a minimum size for the signs?

You not seen them before?

They don't tend to use them that often. Usually signs like that are used in a sensitive area, or a minimalist approach.

http://webarchive.na...lcyclesonly.pdf

Sorry linked the wrong one, it's called a P956 and the list is here http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/workingdrawings/

 

[Coco]

Shared Use Paths are just that Shared Use, you have to be prepared to slow down! You have no greater right then anyone else, you want to go faster, use the road...

IIRC you actually have less right than pedestrians as I'm sure you have to give way to them.


To the OP I recommend an Airzound. 

 

[Spinney]

This has to be a wind up. A shared use path is busy during peak times? So what? You either acknowledge other people exist and have a reason to be using the path or find an alternative route. I really cannot understand what your concern is.

I think some of you have missed the point of the OPs letter - the letter was not about having to slow down, but about the potential for a child to walk into a bike (possibly a bike moving much faster than the OP) and have an accident.

 

[summerdays]

Obviously I have seen the normal sized signs but these ones are actually narrower than the bottom of the pole they are attached to perhaps 10 to a maximum of 15 cm in diameter - and fairly high up - I only just noticed them - could help but think that any motorist seeing me on the pavement would assume I was breaking the law whilst I was trying to get to St Paul Street just a bit further along.

And its hardly a sensitive area - with enormous signs directing traffic along dual carriageway and multi-lane roads.

 

[marinyork]

I think some of you have missed the point of the OPs letter - the letter was not about having to slow down, but about the potential for a child to walk into a bike (possibly a bike moving much faster than the OP) and have an accident.

And what are they going to do about it? What tends to happen with these paths is that they are imperfect to try and get value for money (or are very old or both). I'm sure there is potential for an accident but that's the nature of the beast. Specifically what gavintc has said it correct, on such paths you are going to get problems at certain times. It's probably not value for money widening the sections I'm seen on streetview.

 

[ComedyPilot]

I think some of you have missed the point of the OPs letter - the letter was not about having to slow down, but about the potential for a child to walk into a bike (possibly a bike moving much faster than the OP) and have an accident.

A fast(er) moving road/path user has a responsibility towards a slow(er) road/path user. Ring the bell (if you have one) and be prepared to stop, or use the road.