Should bikes and cars share the same road

[Sara_H]

I can't 'like' that story, as it's awful, but I agree that talk of risks being 'completely removed' is just silly. When someone's had an accident their ideas about risk are skewed, but cycling still isn't at all dangerous really.

Where I think the difference lies is that stories like the one described by @GrasB are rare. I have never been assaulted or threatened with assault by a random pedestrian, but I have been threatened, deliberately driven at, close passed, verbally abused etc many, many times when on my bike by a driver. Granted, I've only had one driver carry out the threat, but I think that I shouldn't have to get used to routinely being threatened just because I'm on a bike in the road.
Now what I've described above are deliberate acts of aggression, and that doesn't take into account the risk posed by people who are just not paying attention on the road. I've had one car written off by a driver who I suspect was texting. I was stationary at a red traffic light. He was still accelerating when he hit me. If I'd been at that traffic light on my bike, I think it's very likely he would have killed me.
Now I've spent alot of the last 10 weeks on buses or in queues waiting for a bus, which gives you a great view of whats happening in the traffic. The amount of drivers on their mobiles while driving is spectacular, it just takes a certain combination of events for that to end in disaster.
And we all see all the time that what I would say is the majority of drivers do not have the faintest idea of how to safely drive around cyclists - routine close passing, pulling out at junctions, left hooking, overtaking on bends or the brow of the hill. These are all routine dangers. Not saying that the majority of this is malicious, but dangerous for cyclists all the same.
To my mind these are massive problems that seem to be ingrained in to the culture of driving here - I don't see how there can possibly be a quick fix to sort out the psychology of millions of drivers.
I've argued for a good long time for good quality dutch style infrastructure, with as much segregation as possible, but incorporating other infrastructure into the mix. No one is suggesting for a moment that it's at all possible to provide a second completely seperate road system for bikes, but that isn't a good argument for vehicular cycling, which after 50 years has been proven not to work for the majority of those who could cycle.

 

[MontyVeda]

They aren't though.

Can't be though. Even if you could segregate every route, which you couldn't, you still need to cope with interaction at junctions etc.

ah, you're doing that super pedantic thing again... whilst missing the point that Sara_h was making.

Don't you think a segregated cycling infrastructure would be nice?

 

[Sara_H]

ah, you're doing that super pedantic thing again... whilst missing the point that Sara_h was making.

Don't you think a segregated cycling infrastructure would be nice?

See this is the other thing. When I'm riding with my son on the road, I find it horribly stressfull. I'm trying to ride defensively for both of us, keep an eye on whats happening around us, shouting instructions to him, keeping an eye on what he's doing etc
When we're on a segregated bike path, we're just pootling along, having a little chat, other riders relevantly easy for him to negotiate alone even when he was younger (he's 11 now). It's relaxing and pleasant, much the same as taking a walk on a pavement as opposed to walking along the edge of the road.

 

[MontyVeda]

ah, you're doing that super pedantic thing again whilst missing the point.

you're confusing 'segregated' with 'completely totally and utterly segregated'

 

[Sara_H]

Can you achieve such a thing? I reckon the other solution, of sorting out people's behaviours, which is routinely dismissed as impossible, would be easier to bring about.

But we haven't achieved that in 50 years, no matter what public information films, legislation or guidelines the government implement. What makes you think this is any more achievable than putting dutch style infrastructure in place?

 

[MontyVeda]

We haven't even tried.

there's a feck of a lot more segregated cycling around Lancaster, Morecambe and the University than there was when i was a lad (i.e. none)... it's great that our local council has 'tried'... shame yours hasn't.

 

[Sara_H]

We haven't even tried.

Really? I see lots of public money being wasted on safe roads campaigns - what about the nice way code as an example. There's plenty of legislation put in place around road safety etc - it's not working.

 

[Dmcd33]

My experience is that as an adult, I am more then happy to cycle on the roads. When It comes to my children I am not. Only segregation would change this.

The other thing is that car culture is the dominating factor in this country. My partner is Swiss and she finds it very odd that there is a tension between a driver and a cyclist. I think this is due to car drivers not owning bikes and understanding the dangers. In Switzerland, most people own and use a bike + a car.

The roads there are seperated by a white line usually and the law states that if you hit a cyclist, It is your fault, unless you can prove otherwise (i.e reckless riding)

 

[Sara_H]

I think 'we haven't even tried' referred to enforcing the law with regard to bad driving practices, and I think you knew that too.

No I didn't read it like that at all. I think the point is that efforts to enforce traffic law, to influence driver behaviour have all failed to promote safe cycling. Successive governments have tried, their efforts have failed.

 

[vickster]

I think it's stressed, impatient people driving cars where there are too many other stressed, impatient people driving cars...I am not sure it's about driver education, rather than just getting people to chill out somehow (of course there will always be thuggish a'holes as drivers, motorcyclists pedestrians, cyclists)

Certainly you get impatient people riding bikes too, especially in the London rush hour - I'd rather take my chances with the drivers than some of the other cyclists

 

[Sara_H]

The nice way code was rubbish though. It's not a case of it 'not working', it's not being enforced because cars are king. Taking cyclists off the road just reinforces that world view.

Yes exactly, it was rubbish, lots of these campaigns are, lots of the legislation is, the law enforcement is rubbish,because those who introduce the legislation and campaigns are as much a part of the car culture as anyone else.
I see this as more of a reason for introducing dutch style infrastructure, not an argument against it, because if these are the attitudes at the top I can't see a way to readily turn the culture around.

 

[raleighnut]

If the police and courts did their job correctly we would be a lot safer on cycles.
Had a cycle stolen- Police just give you a crime number, expect you to claim on insurance and if they do find your bike then it will just as likely be auctioned off.
Knocked off your bike- Police take very little action to find the driver as "well its only a pushbike innit mate"
Threatened by a driver- Well M'lud my client was suffering from stress
I could go on.

 

[MontyVeda]

I think 'we haven't even tried' referred to enforcing the law with regard to bad driving practices, and I think you knew that too.

think what you like.

Adrian's post was vague and I interpreted it one way... you may interpret it another.

 

[the snail]

No I didn't read it like that at all. I think the point is that efforts to enforce traffic law, to influence driver behaviour have all failed to promote safe cycling. Successive governments have tried, their efforts have failed.

Cycling is a relatively safe activity, and despite a huge increase in traffic volumes, the roads are probably safer than ever, so I don't really see any evidence for your assertions. Segregation is fine for pootling along the pavement with your kids, but useless for those of us who want to get from A to B. I'm not a 'vehicular cyclist' btw, I'm just cycling on the road, as cyclists have done for well over a century, despite the Mr Toads of this world.

 

[Markymark]

I cycle thousand of miles a year commuting on London. You aint ever going to get any Dutch style in those narrow roads. The cycle lanes they have are a joke - expensive and mostly useless.

Best thing by far would be to educate drivers. Funny thing in London is that the sheer number of cyclists seem to be doing that organically. I seem to find I get more space, more consideration, less dodgy overtakes etc than I did 3 years ago, or to this present day out side London. It's probably they've given up racing and there's less need to get in front when all they see if more traffic. It's also easier to push past one cyclists than it is past dozens.

I've driven in rush hour and cyclists are everywhere. The traffic is so bad that you end up just bumbling along as the cyclists fly past. It is a bit hairy as they do often swarm around you and will undertake even when indicating to turn.

But all that aside, there's so many cyclists that I think it now works quite well - all without a decent cycle path in sight.