Shouting Match

[spindrift]

Have you taken the bull bars off linford? You do know they kill and cripple, don't you?

 

[LLB]

Linford, this is why people tend to think you don't quite understand what the point is a lot of the time. This is not about you (or your frickin horsebox...) or indeed about the UN in Africa. It is about whether huge 4*4 vehicles are bought and used by people as markers of status and importance to the detriment of other British urban road users, particular more vulnerable ones like cyclists.

Further, you can continue to prate on as if people who get the sharp end of this and complain are somehow like racists, but this just further demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of what it is like to cycle in British cities on a daily basis. Talk of prejudice and discrimination shouldn't be abused by the powerful and privileged - it devalues the real suffering of people who do experience it. Urban 4*4 drivers are driving these vehicles by choice regardless of their effects on others. They are part of the problem, not part of the solution. They are not victims.

That's funny, I thought ALL owners of these cars are '4*4 self-gratification artists'. You obviously cannot differentiate or you wouldn't have made this statement.

As for cycling in British cities, I have far more trouble from the young chav type drivers in their mums cars and their riced up fiestas, as well as private hire vehicles and Taxi drivers, than the run of the mill 4x4s around here which have a rightful place on the roads.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

That's funny, I thought ALL owners of these cars are '4*4 self-gratification artists'. You obviously cannot differentiate or you wouldn't have made this statement.

Read the OP. In (justifiable) anger, I called the guy "a 4*4 self-gratification artist." Now think about this for a few seconds. What does it mean? To try to understand it, visualise a Venn diagram. One circle is '4*4 drivers', one is 'self-gratification artists'. They overlap. In the overlap is the term '4*4 self-gratification artist.' This neither implies that all 4*4 drivers are self-gratification artists, nor that all self-gratification artists are 4*4 drivers. Get it?

I'm sorry Linford, but if you stopped leaping in and bleating 'prejudice' every time someone mentioned 4*4s, then no-one would have to spell out to you why you are wrong.

 

[LLB]

Read the OP. In (justifiable) anger, I called the guy "a 4*4 self-gratification artist." Now think about this for a few seconds. What does it mean? To try to understand it, visualise a Venn diagram. One circle is '4*4 drivers', one is 'self-gratification artists'. They overlap. In the overlap is the term '4*4 self-gratification artist.' This neither implies that all 4*4 drivers are self-gratification artists, nor that all self-gratification artists are 4*4 drivers. Get it?

I'm sorry Linford, but if you stopped leaping in and bleating 'prejudice' every time someone mentioned 4*4s, then no-one would have to spell out to you why you are wrong.

So why didn't you just say 'This self-gratification artist in a 4*4 blah blah etc etc' to avoid confusion or typecasting and then everyone would understand your true feelings from the off ?

 

[jely]

um, just to clarify, FM did in fact only mention 4x4 in the singular... and even then, an Audi was mentioned (i'm presuming to break up that dreaded typecasting)... the discussions on 4x4 were not initially in the plural.

 

[Flying_Monkey]

I thought it was pretty clear to anyone except those who troll the forum looking for pointless arguments. Now we have dealt with all that...

 

[LLB]

um, just to clarify, FM did in fact only mention 4x4 in the singular... and even then, an Audi was mentioned (i'm presuming to break up that dreaded typecasting)... the discussions on 4x4 were not initially in the plural.

You are kidding, read it again -

So I just told him that he was wrong, a 4*4 self-gratification artist, and an embarassment to his whole family

 

[jely]

... ah true... *blushing jely backs away slowly*

 

[LLB]

... ah true... *blushing jely backs away slowly*

Thank you for your honesty

 

[Tynan]

defo, broadly speaking people that drive oversized cars are arrogant and selfish and bad drivers

what sort of person would buy such a car and why?

 

[summerdays]

I had to spend over two hours in heavy London traffic yesterday, and I got to thinking about cyclists. Now even though I was feeling pretty het up by the end and just couldn't wait to get home, at no point did I feel any animosity at all to the cyclists who were weaving through the traffic and making much faster progress than myself. At no time did I feel that any of them were in my way or impeding/threatening to impede my progress. I did try to think with an open mind and be unbiased, not just as a cyclist myself, but I simply could not connect with the anti-cyclist mind set at all.

I can only conclude that the anti-cyclist brigade are generally a particular type of person, I am relieved and glad to say that I am not, and will never be, one of them. To55ers!!

I know that's a long way back in this thread but I did think it was an interesting point ... that cyclists on better bikes, making better progress or faster etc are not viewed with jealousy and hate but more with admiration. Whereas in the car I think does generate more negative views of other car drivers.

defo, broadly speaking people that drive oversized cars are arrogant and selfish and bad drivers

what sort of person would buy such a car and why?

I think they have shown that with the greater percieved safety provided by the oversize cars - people change their behaviour. I remember watching a TV program where they put a selfish 4x4 driver in a mini, and immediately his behaviour changed becoming less aggressive and bullying to more cautious.

 

[LLB]

I know that's a long way back in this thread but I did think it was an interesting point ... that cyclists on better bikes, making better progress or faster etc are not viewed with jealousy and hate but more with admiration. Whereas in the car I think does generate more negative views of other car drivers.



I think they have shown that with the greater percieved safety provided by the oversize cars - people change their behaviour. I remember watching a TV program where they put a selfish 4x4 driver in a mini, and immediately his behaviour changed becoming less aggressive and bullying to more cautious.

I'd disagree with the 2nd paragraph. I drive with more care in the 4x4 than a smaller car given the greater stopping distances given the weight, and also the knowledge that I will do more damage if I do connect with another vehicle. I have seen some very aggressive driving by supermini drivers (small car/big engine) as they have the performance to put themselves in gaps and squeeze others out when accelerating and braking in dense traffic.
No one gets behind the wheel with the intention of having an accident, but the plain fact is that if you are in a big car, and you connect with a small car, the small car is going to come of worse. The risk of roll over is down to the way they are driven. If you don't push a car through the corners, it will not be a problem.

 

[User482]

I'd disagree with the 2nd paragraph. I drive with more care in the 4x4 than a smaller car given the greater stopping distances given the weight, and also the knowledge that I will do more damage if I do connect with another vehicle. I have seen some very aggressive driving by supermini drivers (small car/big engine) as they have the performance to put themselves in gaps and squeeze others out when accelerating and braking in dense traffic.
No one gets behind the wheel with the intention of having an accident, but the plain fact is that if you are in a big car, and you connect with a small car, the small car is going to come of worse. The risk of roll over is down to the way they are driven. If you don't push a car through the corners, it will not be a problem.

That may be true for you linf, but in general, 4x4 drivers are more likely to be involved in an accident, and are more likely to be at fault. And of course due to the size of the vehicle, they do more damage in those accidents.