Slammin Sam

[Aperitif]

It's been tried, in the Laws labs in SA about 10 years ago. It left the players, young fit sports science students, unable to complete 80 mins of play and was abandoned.

Just goes to show how much those two aspects need to be improved I suppose. Not come far in ten years, have we? "Arf, arf, never mind Laddie, the bar's open. The name's Ian/Rob/Ritchie/Andrew (take your pick) by the way..."
As I think I said (somewhere) Sam Burgess' impact on South Sydney's performances this time around will be the true measure of the person. I know nothing about him but his reputation...I don't think he is a 'runaway', and is being unfairly portrayed - as is Lancaster. "Wonderful PR and support team we have here at H.Q."

I haven't seen too much chatter from the ex-internationals on the circuit either; Dallaglio, Johnson - for example, who might have an opinion or two worth harvesting?
But let's wait for the Official report into the whole seance that was Team England 2015 eh? "Yes, yes dear boy- but let's have that drink first, what?!"

 

[nickyboy]

spoken like a true fan of RL

Which 'petty' laws in Union would you change and in what way? I'd bin "numbers" in the line out, iirc for a couple of seasons this was removed. If folk want to watch Union played with less players I'd suggest the follow Seven's; the best form of Rugby for a spectator there is imo.

As to interpretation by refs... at any given level of the game that's usually more of a comprehension problem on behalf of the spectators and players ime.

Glad I never played in a game you've watched. 10 minute scrums? I'd have been crawling away 10m once pinged!

I'm an ex RU player and an avid spectator of schoolboy RU these days.

I think my biggest criticism of RU is that due to the nature of the laws sides can adopt a strategy not of scoring tries but of just playing in important areas in the expectation that sooner or later someone will break one of the laws. Kick the penalty, move on.

Too many complicated rules that are open to individual interpretation leads to this. Hence sides targeting getting the opposition to infringe, rather than trying to score tries themselves. For me, scoring tries should be almost entirely what it's about. Hence I like 7s and I like watching elite RL as games are nearly always decided by who scores the most tries and there are very few points scored through penalties and drop goals (which are like something from the 19th century and we should get rid of completely)

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I'm an ex RU player and an avid spectator of schoolboy RU these days.

I think my biggest criticism of RU is that due to the nature of the laws sides can adopt a strategy not of scoring tries but of just playing in important areas in the expectation that sooner or later someone will break one of the laws. Kick the penalty, move on.

Too many complicated rules that are open to individual interpretation leads to this. Hence sides targeting getting the opposition to infringe, rather than trying to score tries themselves. For me, scoring tries should be almost entirely what it's about. Hence I like 7s and I like watching elite RL as games are nearly always decided by who scores the most tries and there are very few points scored through penalties and drop goals (which are like something from the 19th century and we should get rid of completely)

I must respectfully disagree.

The Law book is a slim tome. The Laws are not complicated. Rather most players, and, more worryingly, most coaches have never read it. No opposing player can be compelled to offend by an opponent. Ever. Know the Laws. Play within them. You can't be pinged.

But the sad truth is that, either through ignorance or through deliberate intent, most players are coached, and cannot resist the temptation, to cheat. Even though they may remain ignorant that what they are being coached to do is illegal. And the players, especially age-grade players, and their CTPs (Crazy Touchline Parents), get very frustrated, when they get pinged for something they have been coached to do, e.g. supporting their weight on their arms when binding onto a tackled player - Ping! You're off your feet! Get back ten! or hands in the scrum/ruck "Ping! Six! Don't insult my intelligence or doubt my vigilance. Hands in! Get back 10!" or crook feed "Ping! Nine we talked about this before the game (refs always do) This ain't TV rugby. Put it in straight next time, now get back 10!" &c.

Referees are human beings, and the community game cannot provide either enough of them, nor provide enough consistency amongst them. But as a player and coach my mantra was "play what is in front of you" and the ref is in front of you, just like the weather and the opposition.

Drop goals are a skill. A real skill. Why takes skills out of the game?

 

[nickyboy]

I must respectfully disagree.

The Law book is a slim tome. The Laws are not complicated. Rather most players, and, more worryingly, most coaches have never read it. No opposing player can be compelled to offend by an opponent. Ever. Know the Laws. Play within them. You can't be pinged.

But the sad truth is that, either through ignorance or through deliberate intent, most players are coached, and cannot resist the temptation, to cheat. Even though they may remain ignorant that what they are being coached to do is illegal. And the players, especially age-grade players, and their CTPs (Crazy Touchline Parents), get very frustrated, when they get pinged for something they have been coached to do, e.g. supporting their weight on their arms when binding onto a tackled player - Ping! You're off your feet! Get back ten! or hands in the scrum/ruck "Ping! Six! Don't insult my intelligence or doubt my vigilance. Hands in! Get back 10!" or crook feed "Ping! Nine we talked about this before the game (refs always do) This ain't TV rugby. Put it in straight next time, now get back 10!" &c.

Referees are human beings, and the community game cannot provide either enough of them, nor provide enough consistency amongst them. But as a player and coach my mantra was "play what is in front of you" and the ref is in front of you, just like the weather and the opposition.

Drop goals are a skill. A real skill. Why takes skills out of the game?

Where I'm coming from is that it seems that the law interpretations are so marginal there seems to be a valid tactic of just playing in a dangerous area, not attempting to score, in the expectation that sooner or later the opposition will get pinged. Of course if a try comes then so much the better. But maintaining phases of play in the hope that the opposition infringe happens.

Having a game where the ref's decision making is so opaque as to encourage teams not to score tries (which is what it should be all about) but to play for penalties suggests that something fundamental is wrong with RU. We've moved the try from 4 to 5 points. I'd move it to 6 and reduce the penalty to 1 or 2 if we don't want to massively simplify the game. "That'll encourage foul play" I hear you say. That's what the sin bin's for and that works quite well IMHO

The problem with drop goals is that they're awarded three points and they're not worth that. Fine, keep 'em. But not three points please

 

[GrumpyGregry]

The opposition can choose not to offend. It isn't obligatory to do so. If they do so it could imply they must cheat to stop their opponents attack. That sort of cheating needs to be sanctioned.

 

[nickyboy]

The opposition can choose not to offend. It isn't obligatory to do so. If they do so it could imply they must cheat to stop their opponents attack. That sort of cheating needs to be sanctioned.

Well I'm looking at it from the perspective of RU being a sporting spectacle. At the moment there's not enough emphasis on scoring tries and too much emphasis on "winning" penalties. Of course cheating must be sanctioned as we must make sure that the best team wins. But RU is in danger of disappearing up its own rule book

 

[david k]

Afnug said: ↑
What gets my goat is the attitude of a lot of Leage players and supporters who still think their game is superior, its not, both codes have there good points and bad points

Fixed that for you

But I haven't said, suggested, hinted at or implied that Union is better than League.
You wonder why you see hatred for League while declaring League the better game and your the one calling me ironic?!

Then forgive me, but your first post here which is an amendment seems to be having a go at League players and supporters.

There is a lot of hatred to RL, it’s a fact, I’ve seen it and the history that anyone can read speaks for itself, not playing the victim as many League supporters are happy with the size and structure of the game,. The ill feeling is really a poor view of English RU, the history and the media who don’t give RL fair coverage. For example, the BBC class RL as a minority sport like netball and hockey yet they have never got 44,000 to a game in London which is out of the heartland for RL, how can they possibly compare?
I don’t dislike RU but I do dislike the English RU and the media for many of the same reasons Welsh RU hate them, I guess we have a common enemy,
I played both, I enjoyed union at stand off as I had lots of room and space to run, I was scoring at will. RL was a lot harder and it did sign professional terms and played for several years mainly in the reserve grade which was still a very good standard, so my views come from experience and meeting many people across the UK.

I still struggle to understand the history behind the banning of league players and the unwillingness to accept that was wrong, but I guess English RU have a bit of form eh. Even worse is the French history when at one time there were far more League clubs than RU, before them pesky Nazis!

 

[martint235]

Sorry but it is a minority sport. You can't claim 44,000 to a London game as anything. There are regular higher crowds for NFL and 60,000 today just to see the Indian PM.

I also don't believe there's a lot of hatred: ignorance and ambivalence yes but not hatred.

Now both of those are from a life long Saints fan who now lives in London

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Well I'm looking at it from the perspective of RU being a sporting spectacle. At the moment there's not enough emphasis on scoring tries and too much emphasis on "winning" penalties. Of course cheating must be sanctioned as we must make sure that the best team wins. But RU is in danger of disappearing up its own rule book

It has been years since the relevant laws were amended. What's changed?

The phrase I here is not "winning" penalities, as if done by some sleight of hand, but rather "forcing" penalties, i.e. to put the oppo under so much pressure and fear of a try being scored that they would choose to kill the play by cheating even if it gives away 3 points. I'd like to see any peno's in the red zone as straight YC's. Penalise the offending side, don't reward the attacking one. I wouldn't just change the points for a penalty without other changes. Take it to two points and that means three-and-a-half try scoring opportunities can be denied by cheats before it hurts.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Sorry but it is a minority sport. You can't claim 44,000 to a London game as anything. There are regular higher crowds for NFL and 60,000 today just to see the Indian PM.

I also don't believe there's a lot of hatred: ignorance and ambivalence yes but not hatred.

Now both of those are from a life long Saints fan who now lives in London

I grew up watching club League on mainstream BBC TV when only Union internationals where shown.

 

[PhilDawson8270]

Drop goals are a skill. A real skill. Why takes skills out of the game?

I find most people that suggest to take "easy points" out of the game, have probably not played much of the sport. I've played a lot of Rugby (League). I can spot kick quite well, I can also kick high balls, and grubbers fine. What I cannot do is drop kick a ball long, and accurate. In fact, at times a long drop kick is hard enough. It is a real skill, the issue is that the pros that are masters of this, make it look so, so easy.

 

[martint235]

I grew up watching club League on mainstream BBC TV when only Union internationals where shown.

I don't think I saw more than 10 RU games before I was 18 and going in pubs. League was the only game discussed and to this day if there's a 6 nations game on the same day as a Challenge Cup (he won't have that "Murdoch b*****d" in the house) and my dad asks did I see the rugby, I know which game he means

 

[david k]

Sorry but it is a minority sport. You can't claim 44,000 to a London game as anything. There are regular higher crowds for NFL and 60,000 today just to see the Indian PM.
I also don't believe there's a lot of hatred: ignorance and ambivalence yes but not hatred.
Now both of those are from a life long Saints fan who now lives in London

Tomorrows International game is a sell out.
The super league is regularly in the top 10 of watched sports on Sky each week
It gets up to 4 times more TV viewers as equivalent RU club games

All of which places it above netball and hockey

I have witnessed hatred but you are entitled to your opinion.
Years of banning players speaks for itself, RU was asked to be the governing body of RL when it started which was refused.

I played academy and A team for St Helens, I was just a kid then though, played alongside Johnathan Griffiths if you remember him, a Welsh RU convert who was very very talented, back in those days RL weren't always great at converting players, bit like RU now

 

[david k]

It is a shame some RU players and coaches such as Mike Ford failed to show the same dignity as Sam did in his interviews, particularly when Ford had done the same himself, it was a cheap shot by him.
Club and player got what they wanted, I guess Sam will move on and forget his experience in RU

 

[martint235]

Tomorrows International game is a sell out.
The super league is regularly in the top 10 of watched sports on Sky each week
It gets up to 4 times more TV viewers as equivalent RU club games

All of which places it above netball and hockey

I have witnessed hatred but you are entitled to your opinion.
Years of banning players speaks for itself, RU was asked to be the governing body of RL when it started which was refused.

I played academy and A team for St Helens, I was just a kid then though, played alongside Johnathan Griffiths if you remember him, a Welsh RU convert who was very very talented, back in those days RL weren't always great at converting players, bit like RU now

Not trying to start an argument. That it has more viewers than netball doesn't mean much, here in the south it remains a minority game you only need to look at the repeated failure to make the Broncos a going concern.

And don't get me started on Union viewing figures bf****xy, b*****d BT Sport.

Edit: without looking back over the thread I may have missed a comparison to netball and hockey. If I have I back gracefully away from this argument and leave you and that poster to it