SMIDSY becoming enshrined in law.

[PK99]

If this were a court of law and you were a barrister then I would have to say that I do disagree with PK99.

the point I was replying to was:

I

but... aren't most of these HGV related fatalities happening with bike filtering on left of HGV which then turns left ?
I'll happily be corrected on that,

.

In some cases that is the case, but I have seen (and experienced) all too many cases where the HGV overtakes a cycits wiating at a junction, and placing the cyclists at risk through no fault of their own

I wrote:

If the cyclist has stopped hard left against the kerb - it IS their fault. See cyclecraft.

ie the cyclist has chosen to put him/herself in a potentially dangerous position by stopping hard left against the kerb contrary to the best advice of Cyclecraft and cycle trainers, and inviting another vehicle to share the lane, I stand by that comment. Best advice is to stop in the centre of the lane.

 

[Recycler]

You sir are an arse.

It's not very helpful to discuss things like that is it?

 

[Recycler]

The CPS dithered over any prosecution, first it was Dangerous Driving, then back to Unsafe vehicle, then back to dangerous driving again,then all charges dropped:.

The very fact that the CPS has dithered and changed it's mind makes me think that this case may well not be as cut and dried as you appear to be making it. Unless and until more information becomes available it is pure conjecture which doesn't really help the debate. It may be entirely down to the driver, it may be a bit of both. We don't know.

The discussion is, in my view, about the general issue filtering on the left of HGV's. We can discuss the specifics of OP when more information is available.

It's a pity that no HGV driver is online to give us the benefit of his experience. I'm not sure though that a HGV driver who is also a cyclist will want to put his head above the parapet on this one!

 

[Recycler]

ie the cyclist has chosen to put him/herself in a potentially dangerous position by stopping hard left against the kerb contrary to the best advice of Cyclecraft and cycle trainers, and inviting another vehicle to share the lane, I stand by that comment. Best advice is to stop in the centre of the lane.

I agree wholeheartedly with that but I wasn't going to be pinned into a corner by the question which was put to me.
You're right, though in stationary traffic at lights I will also, cautiously, filter on the left to get to the ASL when I believe it is safe to do so.

 

[Recycler]

The City Of London is the most dangerous place in the UK to cycle in.

Use the statistics published by the Department for Transport showing the number of casualties per mile travelled - see this table. It says that there were 10,211 cyclist casualties per billion miles travelled in London, compared to 5,638 in England as a whole. So on this measure cycling in London does seem to be about twice as dangerous as in most other regions.
.

Lies, damn lies and statistics.
I love the selective interpretation of those figures. A quick glance tells anyone that London is the most dangerous place in the country for every class of road user. Roughly twice as dangerous for everyone.

Hardly surprising given the traffic density.

 

[PK99]

I agree wholeheartedly with that but I wasn't going to be pinned into a corner by the question which was put to me.
You're right, though in stationary traffic at lights I will also, cautiously, filter on the left to get to the ASL when I believe it is safe to do so.

Agreed on that, but that would (for me) never include passing on the inside of an hgv or bus and i would only do it if i knew how long i had till the lights changed eg the line of traffic i am in stops for the light and would not include cycling up the inside of a line of traffic I happen upon - in that case I stop in primary in the line well behind the last vehicle

 

[Recycler]

Not true. Again. In the vast majority of vehicle/cyclist RTCs it is the DRIVER who is at fault,not the cyclist.

I'ld be interested to see where you get that from. the TRL figures which I have show that the split for "blame" is pretty much equally divided between cyclists and drivers.

Source: Collisions involving pedal cyclists on Britains Roads: establishing the causes.
Project Report PPR445.
various bits from P32 on refer.

What are you referring to?

 

[Recycler]

Agreed on that, but that would (for me) never include passing on the inside of an hgv or bus and i would only do it if i knew how long i had till the lights changed eg the line of traffic i am in stops for the light and would not include cycling up the inside of a line of traffic I happen upon - in that case I stop in primary in the line well behind the last vehicle

I agree with that too, but here in the sunny South West things are a little more laid back.
It's many years since I lived in your part of the country (I was in Southfields) but I don't envy you cycling around there, though I am sure that some parts are great.

 

[dawesome]

I'ld be interested to see where you get that from. the TRL figures which I have show that the split for "blame" is pretty much equally divided between cyclists and drivers.

Source: Collisions involving pedal cyclists on Britains Roads: establishing the causes.
Project Report PPR445.
various bits from P32 on refer.

What are you referring to?

Almost every post you've made on this thread has contained a dishonesty. this is another one, the report says nothing of the kind. Troll elsewhere.

 

[sandman]

Wow, how constructive.

 

[DRHysted]

I work with 44 ton HGVs ( I am not a driver), when moving around them on foot, if the engine is running I always make sure I am in a position that I can see the drivers head (be it direct contact or via one of the many mirrors).
Despite the numerous mirrors that HGVs have fitted nowadays, they are surrounded by blind spots, and the moment that they turn in a direction all the mirrors on that side show is their trailer.
I am not commenting on the item that started this post, as I don't know the facts, but on a bike I will never go up the left hand side of a HGV, unless it is stationary in a right turn lane. Even in a car I spend the least time possible beside a lorry, left or right hand side, and will drop back on a motorway to ensure I am visible in their mirrors.

 

[dawesome]

London is one of the safest places to ride a bike in, providing you do so in a safe and responsible manner.

Catriona Patel was a safe and capable rider, she was killed by a drunk lorry driver chatting on a mobile phone. This is the reason why your's and recycler's victim-blaming posts are so distasteful

 

[Dan B]

t
ie the cyclist has chosen to put him/herself in a potentially dangerous position by stopping hard left against the kerb contrary to the best advice of Cyclecraft and cycle trainers, and inviting another vehicle to share the lane, I stand by that comment. Best advice is to stop in the centre of the lane.

If this advice were contained in the Highway Code I'd be a little more predisposed to accept your apportionment of blame here, but that book contains not even a mention of the phrase "primary position", and the fact is that expectations of motorists are that cyclists are expected to ride on the left - it takes a quite confident cyclist to take the lane and accept the honking, close passes, and abuse that may result. I still don't like your implication that a cyclist who has not received the advice to take primary at junctions (hire bikes come with copies of cyclecraft attached to them, do they?), or who is not fast enough/thick-skinned enough to act on it, is to blame for their own misfortune.

It all comes down to what road environemnt we (as a society) want, and I see no reason that we should aspire to an environment where the mistake of a comparatively soft and fluffy road user should have consequences far out of proportion to the intrinsic danger they pose to their fellow road users. That's not a civilised space, that's a jungle. The road users who are making the environment more dangerous should bear the culpability for the danger they bring, not externalise it onto everyone else.

 

[Recycler]

Almost every post you've made on this thread has contained a dishonesty. this is another one, the report says nothing of the kind. Troll elsewhere.

You have a rather odd way of debating a serious issue but, if you care to read the comment at the foot of page 32 in that report, you'll see that it says exactly what I have said. You will also see that the tables which follow support my comments.

I ask again....when you said earlier that

In the vast majority of vehicle/cyclist RTCs it is the DRIVER who is at fault,not the cyclist.

I asked you to give your source. So far you have not been able to. Is it because you have simply made it up?

 

[Recycler]

Catriona Patel was a safe and capable rider, she was killed by a drunk lorry driver chatting on a mobile phone. This is the reason why your's and recycler's victim-blaming posts are so distasteful

Despite your attempt to claim the moral high ground, nobody is saying that Catriona Patel's death was anything other than a tragedy caused by a driver who should not have been on the road.
However, for you to try to take that and seemingly extend it to an arguement which appears to be trying to condem all HGV drivers as being criminals is disingenous and unlikely to be accepted by any sane person.