So do WE feel safer on the so called dutch roundabouts?

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

Close to me they made two off these things councilors all get very excited about them and surely they have advantages, the cycle path going round makes it virtually impossible to be inside the death corner(word for word translated that can't seem to come up with the uk term atm) of a van or truck.
The other advantage is that the way the road crossing for cycles has been arranged means that's is easyer to look aside as you're facing the road strait, so you don't have to almost look behind to see traffic upcoming. the original dutch idea behind it is also that as a car driver it's easy-er to adjust your speed in such a way that you don't or almost don't have to brake but still can give way to a passing cycle. But i don't think that memo really has gotten trough in the uk sadly.

So with a little history and idea's behind them out of the way, the core point of the question, do we as cyclist/persons on a bicycle/whatever term suits best actually feel safer in the waythey are implented in the uk?
In most cases that i have seen so far, they way they are built is good, there are better examples in the Netherlands, but still design wise it's still ok, also taking into account whilst building things retrospectively you might not always have the space.

Still i usually don't feel much safer because drivers don't known how to use them, so they use it like a kart track, still a bit better i gues because better visibility but still.
So how do others thing about this?

 

[Psamathe]

I certainly feel safer cycling round roundabouts in NL than I do those in the UK but it's impossible for me to say how much of that is the design vs how much the very different attitudes of dutch drivers ... and then we get into consideration given to cyclists and "assumed liability".

That said and without evidence it does seem to me that road markings (incl. roundabouts) for cycle lanes in NL are massively more obvious to drivers than those used in the UK. UK we might even get a pot of white paint used sparingly close to the gutter ...

Ian

 

[markemark]

Perfectly good mini roundabout on my commute replaced with some 4 way junction that nobody, including me, knows how to properly navigate. Everyone slowed for a while during the initial confusion. Now the cars just push in through. The mini roundabout was so much better. Acetone knew where they stood. And priority was based on normal roundabout rules.

I don’t like these new systems. Cars just push on through.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

nside the death corner(word for word translated that can't seem to come up with the uk term atm) of a van or truck.

It's called blind spot.

I don’t like these new systems. Cars just push on through.

I tend to agree.
Cars push through even on speed bumps or dead end streets, just because some car drivers cannot possibly wait a few second, they must go in front of the cyclist.

 

[dutchguylivingintheuk]

I certainly feel safer cycling round roundabouts in NL than I do those in the UK but it's impossible for me to say how much of that is the design vs how much the very different attitudes of dutch drivers ... and then we get into consideration given to cyclists and "assumed liability".

I think it's much more because many dutch drivers regularly cycle themselves, if you need to pop to the shop because you forgot the bottle of ketjup, it much faster and convenient to just jump on your bike then take the car, and if i look at my of my family in the Netherlands that's mostly how they use their bikes.

That said and without evidence it does seem to me that road markings (incl. roundabouts) for cycle lanes in NL are massively more obvious to drivers than those used in the UK. UK we might even get a pot of white paint used sparingly close to the gutter ...

Ian

In highly tourist area's they certainly are but more remotely it isn't that much better overall road maintenance is much better, mainly because there is one authority responsible for the main roads in the Netherlands(technically roads water and some other things), instead of road A council X road B council Y and road C. Exceptions are roads within towns etc. And secondly there is more room for experiments currently most ashfalt in the Netherlands is ''Zoab" With means they use bigger stones to ashfalt the surface leading to more grip on wet conditions, the only real downside is when it freezes but they now are experimenting with trucks that completely defrost a road surface.
And also i say that without evidence but from my impression if they re-surface a road they do it more thoroughly in the Netherlands resulting in much less issues like potholes, i can confidently say that in my 10+ years in the uk i have seen more potholes as in the tiny ditch town i wax born in, which is below sea levels and parts of it where a swamp before they started building on it.

It's called blind spot.

Thank you, i knew the word / term just couldn't come up with it

I tend to agree.
Cars push through even on speed bumps or dead end streets, just because some car drivers cannot possibly wait a few second, they must go in front of the cyclist.

Yes but having said that, i have had multiple times that when i indicate and then look behind to see if there is space that the car who was ready do a take over hold back just to let me switch lanes. I mean i gues there is still hope?

 

[mjr]

So with a little history and idea's behind them out of the way, the core point of the question, do we as cyclist/persons on a bicycle/whatever term suits best actually feel safer in the waythey are implented in the uk?
In most cases that i have seen so far, they way they are built is good, there are better examples in the Netherlands, but still design wise it's still ok, also taking into account whilst building things retrospectively you might not always have the space.

The ones I've ridden (Cambridge, mostly) are good and I feel safer on them, mainly because I can see the motorist coming and decide whether I can proceed or need to take avoiding action and maybe protest (I know, Highway Code says not to, so I keep it modest, but everyone else does).

The designs are not as good as the Netherlands, but much better than what English councils used to build. I fear that some evil or incompetent highways officer will figure out a way of making a "Dutch" roundabout that is in reality useless for cycling, though. They managed it fast enough with cycle lanes!

 

[Jenkins]

I've only used the one on Queen Edith's Way (near Papworth Hospital) three times - the first I used it as a normal roundabout as I was on it before knew what it was, the second I tried the cycle tracks and had to brake suddenly as a car driver didn't give way, the third I went back to using it as a normal roundabout as it felt safer to me.

 

[mjr]

I've only used the one on Queen Edith's Way (near Papworth Hospital) three times - the first I used it as a normal roundabout as I was on it before knew what it was, the second I tried the cycle tracks and had to brake suddenly as a car driver didn't give way, the third I went back to using it as a normal roundabout as it felt safer to me.

Why, though? The nobbers fail to give way when you're on the roundabout too and jump out their entrances. The orbital cycleway doesn't change the nobber percentage, so you still have to cover the brakes even when you shouldn't need to. At least the design means you can see the ones ignoring priority as you cross their exit coming more easily.

 

[Boopop]

Infrastructure can only do so much, how safe you feel is a combination of the attitude of the drivers and the built environment you have around you. I felt almost as safe in Ireland as I did in the Netherlands, but that's because most of the Irish drivers I encountered in Ireland were almost hesitant to a fault.

I think it's unlikely you'll ever feel as safe in the UK while using good infrastructure as you would in NL, that's why attitudes have to change. That takes a long time though. Getting the political will and finance to build good quality cycling infrastructure usually seems very difficult and prolonged, but compared to changing attitudes it's straight forward. We shouldn't wait for attitudes towards vulnerable road users to change before we build the infrastructure. The infrastructure helps change attitudes by convincing more drivers to also cycle, but I suspect it takes a generation or two.

 

[presta]

So do we feel safer on the so called Dutch roundabouts?

Personally, I'd worry more about what is safer than what feels safer. Evidence based policy, not emotion based policy or opinion based policy.

After all, to listen to pedestrians, you'd think cyclists are a bigger menace than cars:

 

[Psamathe]

I think it's unlikely you'll ever feel as safe in the UK while using good infrastructure as you would in NL, that's why attitudes have to change. That takes a long time though.

(Maybe a bit beyond OP's question but) I can't see UK drivers changing their attitudes anytime soon. Motoring in the UK seems to be going in the wrong direction, every bigger cars, ever more SUVs, car as status symbol (I regularly cycle past some small houses where the value of the 2 Range Rovers parked outside exceeds the value of the house).

I wonder if only way for change is introducing "Presumed liability". When cycling in NL talking to dutch cyclists also camping/touring and they seem to think presumed liability an important rule to enhance safety for cyclists.

Ian

 

[matticus]

I certainly feel safer cycling round roundabouts in NL than I do those in the UK but it's impossible for me to say how much of that is the design vs how much the very different attitudes of dutch drivers ... and then we get into consideration given to cyclists and "assumed liability".

That said and without evidence it does seem to me that road markings (incl. roundabouts) for cycle lanes in NL are massively more obvious to drivers than those used in the UK. UK we might even get a pot of white paint used sparingly close to the gutter ...

Ian

What's your experience of the "dutch-style" roundabouts that have recently been installed/built in the UK?

 

[Dogtrousers]

Personally, I'd worry more about what is safer than what feels safer. Evidence based policy, not emotion based policy or opinion based policy.

They're both important.

If I were in charge of a road budget then evidence would be my approach. But if I'm just in charge of whether I ride my bike somewhere then perception is massively important. I don't want to do something that feels unsafe - it's unpleasant. That's why I stopped commuting by bike, I found it stressful. An entirely emotional/ opinion-based response.

 

[Psamathe]

What's your experience of the "dutch-style" roundabouts that have recently been installed/built in the UK?

Not come across any in UK, just those in NL where as I mentioned other considerations probably apply.

Ian

 

[mjr]

Personally, I'd worry more about what is safer than what feels safer. Evidence based policy, not emotion based policy or opinion based policy.

Unfortunately, the two do interact. If it doesn't feel safe, fewer people will use it, you'll get the evidence more slowly and it may be from a biased subset of the possible/desired users.

About UK drivers changing: I've been pleasantly surprised how compliance with the more-publicised rules on giving way when turning across cycleways has kept on increasing. It is a shame motor vehicles keep getting wider, though. More and more of them can't pass each other or cyclists safely on small roads. Surely the rules on maximum vehicle width need tightening up?