Some proper sentencing?

[mjr]

That would be "many" as in a minute percentage.

1-2% of released murderers were convicted of another murder. Not many (an average of 3 a year 2000-2009 in the UK), but not "minute" either.

Costs and prison capacity are important. They are paid for by us, the tax payers. What is the point of prison? To house those who would otherwise be a threat to society and to rehabilitate those that can be rehabilitated so that they do not re-offend but can be a contributing member of society.

Isn't a "driver" who won't plead guilty after killing someone in what some people still insist on calling an "accident" a threat to others? Don't they need some rehabilitation so they don't continue as before and kill again?

But that isn't because people are terrified of sentencing. That's because people know that there is a high risk of getting caught, and that if they have an accident, the penalty will be much worse.

How do you know this? Are you extrapolating from the US Death Penalty?

 

[Notafettler]

Are you for real? Which parts have you been?

The councils in your opinion might be doing their best but in actual fact its a legal requirement to ensure the roads are kept safe and well maintained.

Then they will have reduce funding somewhere else. Where do you think they should reduce funding to pay for better roads?

 

[HMS_Dave]

Then they will have reduce funding somewhere else. Where do you think they should reduce funding to pay for better roads?

Halve council bosses pay, id start there...

 

[Notafettler]

Halve council bosses pay, id start there...

Silly answer you know well that would result in a minscule saving. So to sum you can come with no way of creating savings in council budgets. So your whole argument is worthless. "I want better roads and I can not think of any way the council can afford it. The council can just make the money appear by....fill the rest in.

 

[HMS_Dave]

Silly answer you know well that would result in a minscule saving. So to sum you can come with no way of creating savings in council budgets. So your whole argument is worthless. "I want better roads and I can not think of any way the council can afford it. The council can just make the money appear by....fill the rest in.

A silly question deserves a silly answer... Im glad you picked up on that.

If you are prepared to delve into council funding, you need to understand their exact spending. Im not talking about their colourful little leaflets they send out each year, but a proper breakdown of their spending. How about the Gov't grants given to councils that are supposedly spent on potholes? Break it down...

You can't ask a question like "where do councils get their funding from?" when you almost certainly don't know the breakdowns of their spending "including third party resources" yourself. We've read in the papers that they're skint, but then Boris Johnson has reportedly said a number of times over the past that his salary is not "enough to live on".

Lets deal in facts if you want to but then prove to me that councils are skint to the point that they can no longer maintain a legal requirement to maintain the road infrastructure...

 

[Notafettler]

A silly question deserves a silly answer... Im glad you picked up on that.

If you are prepared to delve into council funding, you need to understand their exact spending. Im not talking about their colourful little leaflets they send out each year, but a proper breakdown of their spending. How about the Gov't grants given to councils that are supposedly spent on potholes? Break it down...

You can't ask a question like "where do councils get their funding from?" when you almost certainly don't know the breakdowns of their spending "including third party resources" yourself. We've read in the papers that they're skint, but then Boris Johnson has reportedly said a number of times over the past that his salary is not "enough to live on".

Lets deal in facts if you want to but then prove to me that councils are skint to the point that they can no longer maintain a legal requirement to maintain the road infrastructure...

Surely you should be the one supplying the proof that they have the money? And as I said cuttings council bosses wages will not add any meaningful amount to the coffers. A silly view to suggest it would. And now you bring Boris Johnson salary into your argument. That is so so silly.

 

[Notafettler]

It will be of zero deterrence. People commit dangerous driving offences in their many thousands every day, confident that the chances of being detected by police are miniscule. What’s needed is a properly funded and resourced police service, with many more traffic patrols, unmarked and marked to make dangerous drivers feel it’s too risky to break the law. Oh, and a nationwide system whereby the public can submit video evidence of traffic offences to police for prosecution. The cops can’t be everywhere but the public can.

I agree with your argument over public submitting evidence But so few have cameras in there cars. I think it's Finland where nearly everyone has them. I think they should be encouraged via insurance companies?

 

[HMS_Dave]

My point wasn't specifically Boris wages, more the REPORTING of it as it is with council funding. It is not evidence of anything... You are refuting my argument based on opinion. That is fine. But isn't factual which is my point.... I've made my point and had my say and that is the end of my contribution to this thread.

 

[icowden]

Isn't a "driver" who won't plead guilty after killing someone in what some people still insist on calling an "accident" a threat to others? Don't they need some rehabilitation so they don't continue as before and kill again?

He did plead guilty though. Isn't that the point?

How do you know this? Are you extrapolating from the US Death Penalty?

No. I just feel that most people changed their attitude (certainly many of my friends did) to drink driving when there was a high risk of being banned from driving, not from conjecture about how many years they might spend in prison. Similarly, people in the US don't refrain from shooting each other because they are worried about a life in prison or the death sentence. If they did, then the US would have a very low death rate.

Or take this guy:-

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/08/08/us/man-freed-life-sentence-marijuana-trnd/index.html

He clearly lived in fear of being sentence to life in prison for being in possession of a small amount of marijuana. The US thrives on excessive sentencing. The costs of keeping this man in prison rather than actually getting him some help must have been astronomical. It makes no economic sense, It fails to help anyone.

Sentences just don't act as a deterrent:-

https://www.transformjustice.org.uk/do-tough-sentences-deter-crime/#:~:text=If deterrent sentencing works, this,new law than before it.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180514-do-long-prison-sentences-deter-crime

https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence

The only people who support them are jingoistic morons like Priti Patel who want to use them to get votes from the "string em up" section of society.

 

[matticus]

Sentences just don't act as a deterrent:-

https://www.transformjustice.org.uk/do-tough-sentences-deter-crime/#:~:text=If deterrent sentencing works, this,new law than before it.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180514-do-long-prison-sentences-deter-crime

https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence

The only people who support them are jingoistic morons like Priti Patel who want to use them to get votes from the "string em up" section of society.

It's funny how people can read the same thing, and make different conclusions. (Like I said upthread) I've read a number of these articles about deterrence; they broadly all gave me the same impression.
I read your BBC link above (as I find BBC make things easy for me to read): it seemed to say:
- long sentences aren't the best deterrence,
- they aren't as effective as most people instinctively think.

You've concluded differently. <gallic shrug>

 

[icowden]

Horses for courses

The Norwegian approach seems to be particularly effective, particularly at rehabilitating those that can be rehabilitated. Whereas the US approach of lock em up forever is massively ineffective.

 

[matticus]

Horses for courses

The Norwegian approach seems to be particularly effective, particularly at rehabilitating those that can be rehabilitated. Whereas the US approach of lock em up forever is massively ineffective.

Do you think sentence length is the only difference between the two systems?

[I'm tempted to write a very long sentence here - as a hilarious play on words - but can't be arsed. Sorry.]

 

[icowden]

Do you think sentence length is the only difference between the two systems?

Obviously not. The Norwegian model is about rehabilitation. About trying to ensure that the offender does not re offend. As the BBC article states - 20% re offending rate vs 67% in the US over two and three years of leaving prison. Average prison sentence in Norway is 8 months. A stat from 2003 in the In the US is 54.7 months for guilty pleas and 153.7 months for offences resolved by trial. Yep. 12 years and 9 months. Now whether that includes stupid outliers I don't know.

Sometimes it feels very odd in both directions. For example in the US the Oklahoma Bomber was given 162 consecutive life sentences and Charles Scott Robinson was sentenced to serve 30,000 years for 6 counts of child rape. Whereas Anders Brevik despite the severity of his crimes will serve 21 years in prison (although this may be extended if he does not become rehabilitated). That is the longest sentence available in Norway. Norway believes in restorative justice whereas the US believes in retributive justice.

 

[snorri]

We've heard this message before, but it seems more powerful when coming from the lips of one so young who has suffered, and will continue to suffer from the actions of an inattentive driver .

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1002111063637180417

 

[glasgowcyclist]

We've heard this message before, but it seems more powerful when coming from the lips of one so young who has suffered, and will continue to suffer from the actions of an inattentive driver .

View: https://twitter.com/i/status/1002111063637180417

The pain and frustration in her voice.

She's one of hundreds with heart-breaking accounts and injuries but the system is not geared up to properly deter or punish drivers.