Stability

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
OP, do you load your bike as much as in your avatar ? If you do, you really need a cargo bike.

My best man toured the world on a Thorn MTB, but had panniers front and rear to keep the weight balanced.
 

Tigerbiten

Veteran
Your problem isn't a language problem so it's your own problem then.
It makes your words:
"I said why did you buy something you didn't want".
... pointless - "you want" implies a choice of me, and there was no choice of me - the producer/dealer chosed.
But your choice is do you accept what the dealer had picked or not.
If you don't like what is normally picked for the bike as standard, then you haggle until you get something that is acceptable to you and is doable for the dealer.
If the dealer truly wants the sale there's probably always a little leeway about what's fitted.
The downside is you may well need to pay a little extra for the non-standard parts.
If you cannot come to an agreement about parts/cost then you can always go somewhere else.
Even if you don't alter anything, if you haggle a little you may get a discount ......... :biggrin:

That why my recumbent trike has very very non-standard gears.
I knew I wanted a much bigger range to my gears than normally offered.
So I sat down with the manufacturer/dealer and has a frank session where I said what I wanted and they told me what was possible.
In the end I probably picked the most expensive option but I almost had the gear range I wanted.
A couple of further tweaks as I got used to them has given me exactly what I want from my gears, a range of 9.4"-178".

So there's always a choice, but it may not be an easily obvious choice ......... :biggrin:
 
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OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
But your choice is do you accept what the dealer had picked or not.
The dealer didn't specify all properties of all parts of the bike.
The dealer didn't give me a list of brands and models of all parts of the bike.
The dealer didn't even know himself which brands/models the drivetrain components would be.
I was demanded an ahead-payment of 2500 of the 4300 euro that the bike costed.
Reason given: "to give the engineers something to work with".
The rear light, was compared to that just a detail, I never expected it to have no switch, I never had a bike with lights without an on/off switch. And also unaware those existed. It was a surprise, post mortem.
There was alot untold to me. Including that 5mm wrong chainline, which unveiled the dealers production time - statement that they had found a solution to make the chainline "100% straight" as a plain lie.
I asked for a 1/8" drivetrain. I wasn't told that the chainring was 3/32". I had to discover it, when it wore out in a single month, not only due to being thinner, but also due to the chainline.
And then you claim here that it all were choices of me?
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
you did have a choice and you chose to buy

its not that difficult ….you parted with money and got goods in return, that means you bought something
The claim was not that I bought something, but that I chosed the parts of the bike. A wrong claim. It's that easy.
 

SkipdiverJohn

Über Member
Location
London
If you had specific requirements, you should have put those in writing to the dealer when ordering, and you should not have accepted delivery of the bike without checking if it was built to the required spec. If I buy a new car and tell the dealer I want it in blue, I am not going to accept being supplied with a yellow one.
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
ok you chose to buy something , you didn't know what that something was but you bought it anyway , then complain that the something that you bought, wasnt what you wanted :wacko::wacko:
I didn't know bikelights without an off switch existed.
It wasn't mentioned in the advertisement blahblah.
I expected a switch.
I discovered a none.
This isn't hard to understand - your surprise must be jesting?
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
If you had specific requirements, you should have put those in writing to the dealer when ordering, and you should not have accepted delivery of the bike without checking if it was built to the required spec. If I buy a new car and tell the dealer I want it in blue, I am not going to accept being supplied with a yellow one.
The whole bike turnt out to be a mash together with a dozen problems (some dealer aware-but-unsaid to customer), with as most ridiculous one being a 5 mm offcenter chainline on a fixie.
As example, I had a specific requirement: a 1/8" drivetrain. The chainring turnt out to be 3/32". I discovered it when I was trying to figure out why the drivetrain of a 4300 euro bike wore down after 5-6 weeks while those on my 1000 euro earlier fixies held it out a 6-9 months. See, you're right, I should have checked (read: measure everything) but I just didn't expect such plain lies. That chainline issue I only discovered after a whole year, when chain parts hung 45° tilted, the dealer still jesting surprise and no idea at all, and me ceasing to believe the jest. It a question on a forum to receive that explanation, some learning (how to measure chainline) and a reference to the explanation, to finally force the dealers admittance, and still then, insinuating unawareness by answering that he had followed my measurements and that they appeared to be correct.
To finally reveil it all as a single big lie, since during the production phase of the bike, the dealer had once mailed me this:
(a Google translate):
Day <myname>,

just a final update regarding your bike.

This is completely ready at Santos and looks, it seems, great. Only the chain line is not one hundred percent straight. This is caused by the fact that the rear sprocket is too close inwards. This is not a problem in itself and we could deliver the bike. Only a slanted chain line results in faster wear and we want to avoid that as much as possible. We could adjust the chain line with a smaller rear sprocket and chainring in the front so that we can place the latter more inwards. As a result, fewer teeth so faster wear. Again a compromise that we do not want to make.
However, in consultation with Hajo van Santos, we have decided to make a final extra effort to really get the bike right. I started looking again and we have found a solution where the rear sprocket comes out a lot more and we can maintain the sprocket ratio.
Everything will be delivered to Santos within a day or ten. So please wait and apologize for the delay.

Never thought that the most 'simple' Santos would become such an educational challenge and quest. I look forward to it with you and I am convinced that we have made something beautiful out of it.

As requested, once I finish the bike, I make an overview of the parts and components used.
He said they've found a solution for a chainline that is not 100% perfect straight, to me, this implies a solution that makes a 100% perfect straight (let's consider < 1% as perfect haha).
However, post that "solution" execution, the chainline was 5 mm wrong.
If that "rear sprocket comes out A LOT MORE" had been really true, then the bikes original (pre-"solution") chainline must have been how much wrong?
10 mm?
15 mm?
25 mm?
...?

This stability issue must also have a specific cause - the behavior difference is just as remarkable as that 45° tilted chain caused by 5 mm wrong chainline.
Only for me much less problematic, since I pack some kilo's on top of the rack as a default luggage.
What I'm at the moment pestered most with, is the chains tension variation. It's now less than halve as worse as it has been (1 cause identified and solved) but a second one (likely chainsets spider offcenter) still there. Spending bucks on yet another chainset (by elimination as last cause identified, or it should be due to the eccentric chain tensioner which would be hard to explain), with hope as sole insurance, I don't consider an option right now. The tension variation causes a noisy drivetrain (some creaking, some clicking) as background music.
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
and that's where you went wrong, expect nothing, check everything, then pert with your hard earned only when you are happy that you are buying what you WANT, and not something you DIDNT WANT
I also don't cut a breads bag and crust to check if a bread is really brown not white.
 
sorry, silly me, I didn't realise the bike came in a bag and you couldn't see it . not really the same is it spending a pound on a loaf or hundreds on a bike, your not happy with what you got because you didn't check what you was buying , ….simple as that , anyway that's me done on the matter
 
OP
silva

silva

Active Member
Location
Belgium
sorry, silly me, I didn't realise the bike came in a bag and you couldn't see it . not really the same is it spending a pound on a loaf or hundreds on a bike, your not happy with what you got because you didn't check what you was buying , ….simple as that , anyway that's me done on the matter
The bike was really the same - I paid 2500 ahead of production and the remainder upon presence in shop. I had to take the train and ride the bike home since the dealer said he couldn't deliver home due to no car, after having promised months earlier before order that he had a familiar who would do this job for him.
And my pickup of the bike was required to happen in a hurry because he planned holiday start first weekend after.

I could further add such stories, but since you say you've done on the matter, and also (again) off to the topics subject, I'll pass.
 
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