Super Long Lorries

[jonesy]

Quite. It depends on the actual increased risk and if there is any corresponding reduction in the number of vehicles run. In the case of bendies there is a reduction at peak on the corresponding number of double-deckers but about the same out of peak. The TRL report doesn't address the effect of lowering costs of high volume/low weight transport costs.

You say "I've directed you to a TRL report and now you don't like it because it doesnt' draw simplistic black and white conclusions to support your argument..."

That is outrageous when I was only pointing out it doesn't support yours and why. You also wrongly assume I support the scappage of bendies and more. All I am asking is to try and get some good objective evidence on this topic. You are making assumptions about beliefs I do not have and even said I do not have.

Eh? What have I said that the report contradicts (which I drew to your attention, and you haven't yet had much time to read).

And sorry, but your call for objective evidence looks rather weak when the only reason you got challenged in this thread is because you kicked off with unsubtantiated opinions on both bendy buses and lorries, and when pointed to an in-depth study your first reaction was to claim you didn't have time to read it!

 

[Rhythm Thief]

... and when pointed to an in-depth study your first reaction was to claim you didn't have time to read it!

Hmmm. Where have we seen that before?

 

[StuartG]

And sorry, but your call for objective evidence looks rather weak when the only reason you got challenged in this thread is because you kicked off with unsubtantiated opinions on both bendy buses and lorries, and when pointed to an in-depth study your first reaction was to claim you didn't have time to read it!

You really now have me confused. You point me to a report summary which explicitly says that longer vehicles are more likely cause injury. When I repeat that you say it is unsubstantiated. You then accuse me of not accepting the facts in the report.

The only important issue, which I will repeat for the umpteenth time, is whether the increase in risk from these vehicles is reduced sufficiently by the reduction in vehicle miles?

The report say yes - if the tonnes.miles is kept constant. That is unrealistic as even the DfT consider cost and mileage to be inversely correlated (and you yourself implicitly when mentioning fuel duty and road pricing).

All I am asking is that this effect is objectively studied. What is the increased risk, is it effect purely on length or the way the articulation reduces vision. I don't know what the result would be. You appear not to want that.

Why?

 

[dellzeqq]

Simon - so if longer lorries are more dangerous than shorter ones - why do buses not follow the same rule?.

I prefer evidence to rules. And, yes I'm familiar with most of the bendy routes in London. And we've done the capacity thing time and time again - in relation to the 38 and 73 in particular.

 

[jonesy]

You really now have me confused. You point me to a report summary which explicitly says that longer vehicles are more likely cause injury. When I repeat that you say it is unsubstantiated. You then accuse me of not accepting the facts in the report. [1]

The only important issue, which I will repeat for the umpteenth time, is whether the increase in risk from these vehicles is reduced sufficiently by the reduction in vehicle miles?

The report say yes - if the tonnes.miles is kept constant. That is unrealistic as even the DfT consider cost and mileage to be inversely correlated [2](and you yourself implicitly when mentioning fuel duty and road pricing).

All I am asking is that this effect is objectively studied. [3]What is the increased risk, is it effect purely on length or the way the articulation reduces vision. I don't know what the result would be. You appear not to want that.

Why?

I agree that you are confused.

[1] What you said was "Indeed the fact that longer vehicle creates more death... " - perhaps you should have been more precise? The point is whether there is an overall increase in accidents, and report suggests otherwise as the total mileage will fall for the same goods.

[2]That was the conclusion of the report. I take it you are talking about price elasticity of demand? For transport this is signfificantly lower than 1, so a 10% change in transport costs has more like a 1% change in transport demand. The elasticities for freight transport will be particularly low, because the cost of transport is only a small part of the total cost of most goods.

[3]yes, and I've given you a reference to such a study!

[4] why don't you read the report? It is very detailed, looks at the pros and cons in a whole variety of areas very objectively. As I said earlier, the arguments are not black and white as your first posts suggested, and I woldn't actually support the introduction of these vehicles as things stand. However, even if we agree on the final conclusion I am going to carry on arguing with you if you keep putting forward uninformed opinions and don't read the report of the study you say you wanted!.

 

[StuartG]

Jonesy - you slander me yet again about black and white - which is a concept you introduced to the discussion. My whole point is that IT IS NOT BLACK & WHITE (sorry) as Mr Denby declaimed. But then why should he? - he is an interested party.

We are talking about increased risk. The increase will be a factor of this particular configuration and not purely proportional to length. The elasticity will be a factor of this particular market. Neither of us knows the best estimate for either and whether the latter is sufficient to cancel the former. If it is I don't have a problem - as I have made clear.

I just want to know. I suppose I could have read the whole report in the time it has taken this afternoon - and I do have a day job. Luckily I am the boss! The reason I didn't was when I asked if it addressed the effect of cost and volume your answer suggested it didn't - I even checked back to you on that.

Well work has to be done. I think I have nothing to add except that road safety is my prime concern and I hope we both agree is never simple and often surprising.

Cheers

 

[sheddy]

Current CTC Campaign here - http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=170&ea.campaign.id=11765

CTC will redirect the form to your own MP

 

[sheddy]

It looks like the Govt may have this sewn up. It seems existing lorry - trailer combos can already be 60ft, so that allowing single 60ft lorries will be OK.
Oh Bum

 

[Rhythm Thief]

It looks like the Govt may have this sewn up. It seems existing lorry - trailer combos can already be 60ft, so that allowing single 60ft lorries will be OK.
Oh Bum

What's changed then? The thing I drive every single night for around 300 miles each trip is about 60ft long.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

Incidentally, safety concerns aside, I can't be the only person on here who would jump at the chance to have a go in an artic pulling two trailers, like the thing Denby built.

 

[slowmotion]

Incidentally, safety concerns aside, I can't be the only person on here who would jump at the chance to have a go in an artic pulling two trailers, like the thing Denby built.

RT, I think you might find my attempts to reverse it faintly amusing.

 

[growingvegetables]

Just an anecdotal fwiw on bendy buses - the standard of driving competence shown by First Leeds is ..... let's say, variable ; from the superb to the numptiest cowboy.

But the FTR purple bendy is something else! Another world. I live on their route, and regularly cycle good stretches of it. And the standard of driving these guys and lasses show is on another planet - so professional, so consistently and extraordinarily respectful of me on a bike, indeed embarrassingly courteous on occasions.

Just guessing - they're probably absolute pigs to drive, and First made a big investment in driver training (sorry, they're not drivers, they're "pilots" - I kid you not!)... and maybe in management too?

Dammit - if they can do it for one route, they sure as **** should do it for all their routes, including their other bendy bus routes.

 

[jonesy]

...
Just guessing - they're probably absolute pigs to drive, and First made a big investment in driver training (sorry, they're not drivers, they're "pilots" - I kid you not!)... and maybe in management too?

...

Sainsbury's would call them "colleagues"

 

[Rhythm Thief]

Sainsbury's would call them "colleagues"

Of all the things (and there are many) thyat annoy me in this world, nothing annoys me as much as that. In the first place, "colleagues" is nopt a cuddly alternative to the word "staff"; it's just bad English in this context. And in the second place, I object to being patronised by a huge multinational company pretending that they somehow care about me. Not that I work for Sainsbury's, but I have in the past and it still annoys me now.l

 

[waggoner]

Lorry driver here too. I've not read the comments properly yet and bit too late at night now. Artics are up to 55' in lenght and waggon and drags can go to 62' in lenght.
Lorries are here to stay!! no matter what, our railway network is gone as such, and even if they did open it all back up,, you'll still need lorries at each end anyway,,,so now you have 2 lorries and 1 train,,, who's going to foot the cost of that?? because it will be dearer!! you and me???
I don't think its so much to do with the lenght of lorries, i would say its more to do with who's driving them,,,just as there's bad/dangerous car drivers so there is bad/dangerous hgv drivers!! i've been cut up myself whilst driving..

I ride my bike to work then jump into a 40 tonne artic,, one extreme to the other i guess,,but as a cyclist when i drive around city's it makes you watch out a bit more.

So maybe its a case of cyclists and drivers being made aware that lorries cannot turn on a sixpence,, they need a little bit more room to turn,, and if they swing out to turn a corner,,,not to zoom up the inside.

We all got horror stories to tell of inpatient drivers/riders,,,,,,theres idiot's out there on all sides!!!
So as someone said above,,driver training,,but on all drivers regardless of it being a car,lorry or bike..

Thats enough,,,off to bed now!!