Surly LHT advise

[yashicamat]

Having seen this sort of comment a fair bit I'm curious as to a bit more background. Are the DPs on your SS subjected to the same sort of braking extremes as the tourer? My obvious concern is whether it's comparing like for like. My understanding is that brakes, by power, are rated disc, v, DP and canti, but with a lot of poor canti performance being blamed on lower quality brakes and poor setup.

I believe the mechanical advantage of DPs is a lot better than cantilever brakes. The downside of this is the tolerance on the wheel (and the space available for the levers to work over, i.e., mudguard clearance is tiny and only narrow tyres will fit) is very very tight as the pads are only a few mm away from the wheel at rest. I believe V-brakes have a similar mechanical advantage, but it is achieved I think through changing the direction of the force applied, rather than through the use of several pivots as with DPs.

The braking performance between the tourer and the SS are not that incomparable with unloaded bikes. The SS is 5kg lighter than the tourer, but factor in the 75kg of me on it and the actual overall reduction in weight isn't massive. Obviously start strapping panniers etc. on the LHT and things change.

I personally would be slightly sceptical about having discs on a touring bike. I certainly wouldn't be happy using mechanical discs as I've generally found them inferior to V-brakes (although I may have been unlucky) and hydraulics, while they have been totally reliable and effective on the MTB so far, are just a liability I wouldn't want if cycling somewhere remote. Get a leak in the system and there's no way that can be fixed on the roadside. Cantis are so simple they are unlikely to go wrong, anything that does though can probably be fixed.

upsidedown: glad you've seen the light with turning the indexing off. So much smoother and you never need worry about "adjusting" gears ever again (apart from limit screws I suppose . . .).

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Greg, wouldn't that give you some concerns about spares/repairs if anything went wrong, or are disc parts widely available?

A good point. My 'touring' thinking is formed from my MTB'ing experience rather than being an ex-roadie so long ago it no longer counts. I wouldn't use her outside UK/Europe. I have no plans for a world tour but if the lottery comes up....

I carry spare pads, which I bought outside Bristol in a bike shop I liked the look of when riding past one day. Important to choose disc brakes that share pads with MTB's. So Avid BB7's are the way to go. BB5 pads aren't usually stock items but the BB7 pad is the same as some of their popular MTB ones.

I did a bit of research in that I was sad enough to walk into all manner of LBS's over a period of time and ask "do you stock such and such" If they said yes I bought a gratitube or an energy bar and went on my way. Wouldn't expect a road focused LBS to stock 'em but every town has a MTB shop, and the pads are stock items in Shitehuts. Cables are bog standard cables.

I work on the assumption that anything that will eff the rotors up will eff up other parts of the bike and my body pretty badly. That has been my experience of (hydraulic) discs on MTB's. In fact one MTB still has an effed rotor I bent back into shape with an adjustable spanner and the strap of my bum bag. Still works fine though it has been retired from full on use away.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I personally would be slightly sceptical about having discs on a touring bike. I certainly wouldn't be happy using mechanical discs as I've generally found them inferior to V-brakes (although I may have been unlucky) and hydraulics, while they have been totally reliable and effective on the MTB so far, are just a liability I wouldn't want if cycling somewhere remote. Get a leak in the system and there's no way that can be fixed on the roadside. Cantis are so simple they are unlikely to go wrong, anything that does though can probably be fixed.

Have never done a back to back compare between mech discs and V braked MTB's as all my disc-ed MTB's have had hydraulics. I hear people say V's are better but struggle to believe it IF the discs are set up properly

The Avid BB7's on my tourer have huge stopping power, great modulation, work pretty much the same wet or dry and way way better than rim brakes in the wet esp on roughstuff. The secret to this is Avid Full Metal Jackets and a painstaking approach to fitting the cables and setting up the callipers. Having had a tyre blow out years back from hot rims on a touring ATB in France with off road excursion as a result I decided discs were the way to go.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I've been up and down nearly every mountain in the Alps and Dolomites using my Galaxy's Avid cantilevers and have never had a problem with stopping, even with 4 panniers and a tent.
I've never found them difficult to adjust either. There may well be something better but they're good enough for me until they fail!

Don't doubt it. You find them easy to adjust so you keep them well set up and adjusted perhaps? Being a big(ger) lad I need a head start in the brake department before I load the bike up!

 

[MacB]

Greg, how hard are BB7's to set up and what sort of maintenance regime do they require?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Greg, how hard are BB7's to set up and what sort of maintenance regime do they require?

Well I am not known for my finesse or subtlety in these matters which sometimes counts against me when I do things against the clock.

Let's expand the question and cover installing them too.

You need a third hand tool to install them properly or change the cables (and a proper cable cutter, and a heat gun (hairdrier was fine) and a decent hacksaw if putting full metal jackets on as well which I thoroughly recommend - but hey you're a cyclist you already have all these things.)

NB They need an inline cable adjuster when used with drops which no bike manufacturer seems to put on when they spec them as OE even though the instructions say it is mandatory.

You need to disregard the factory fitting and fettling instructions; the right way to do it is freely available on the net via Mr G. Oogle, and is proof, as far as this fool goes at least provided you follow it to the letter. Initial set up is a simple methodical iterative process. Adjustment for wear on the road is then the only maintenance they need, if used with FMJ's anyway, and this is tool free and simply a matter of repeating the last few steps of the install process. Take 2 mins max per brake if you are a bit slow like me. As does replacing a rotor if you need to.

BB5's otoh were a pita to adjust on the road. Impossible to do with cold wet fingers.

 

[Tedx]

The main advantage of bar end shifters is still having two hands on the bars while riding along. This gives much more control than having to have only one hand contacting the bars while shifting from the tube shifters. I have done thousands of miles with bar end shifters and come off the bike a few times. A few scratches but nothing more than that.

My next bike will be a 26 inch wheeler

 

[andym]

You need a third hand tool to install them properly or change the cables (and a proper cable cutter, and a heat gun (hairdrier was fine) and a decent hacksaw if putting full metal jackets on as well which I thoroughly recommend - but hey you're a cyclist you already have all these things.)

Eh? Third hand tool? Heat gun? Hair dryer? I think you're overcomplicating things.

Installation the same as with v-brakes (need a decent set of cable cutters but nothing else). Adjust the tension in the same way as you would with v-brakes. Centre the brake using the knurled knob on the brake. Job done.

Maintenance - same as with v-brakes - use the inline adjuster and then if you've taken up all of the slack undo the bolt at the brake, pull the cable taut and retighten.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Eh? Third hand tool? Heat gun? Hair dryer? I think you're overcomplicating things.

Installation the same as with v-brakes (need a decent set of cable cutters but nothing else). Adjust the tension in the same way as you would with v-brakes. Centre the brake using the knurled knob on the brake. Job done.

Maintenance - same as with v-brakes - use the inline adjuster and then if you've taken up all of the slack undo the bolt at the brake, pull the cable taut and retighten.

read the flippin' post; I said you need the heat gun IF you are installing full metal jackets...

you may succeed in setting up BB's and V's without a third hand. I have one and use it because it makes it easier and quicker and makes for a much crisper sharper less squishy braking action on V's or BB's

What's that noise... St Sheldon spinning in his grave?

The inline adapter, which will odds on not be fitted if the BB's are OE on a new bike, is there to deal only with cable stretch not to adjust the brakes. I beleive using it as a pad wear compensator is symptomatic of poor setup. Why else do avid put wear adjuster knobs on the brakes and yadda on about using them in the instructions? Once you set the cable up properly on a set of BB's it should never ever need reclamping again for the life of the brakes. New pads? wind back the two adjuster knobs pop 'em in. recentre adjust for feel distance from rotor job done.

YMMV.

 

[andym]

read the flippin' post; I said you need the heat gun IF you are installing full metal jackets...

Ah right, I'd read it as only the hacksaw bit applied to fitting full metal jackets.

 

[MacB]

Ah right, I'd read it as you needed a hacksaw if using full metal jackets.

don't know why he changed his name from GrumpyGreg

 

[GrumpyGregry]

don't know why he changed his name from GrumpyGreg

'k off

(only joking)

 

[GrumpyGregry]

don't know why he changed his name from GrumpyGreg

'k off

(only joking)

 

[GrahamG]

I've gone for 26" wheels for both me (2010 model 56cm) and the other half (2009 48cm -no choice!), flat bars with V-brakes and mtb shifter pods (packing a spare pair of old school friction shifters just in case). I just don't understand the obsession with using drops, it makes things more of a pain with regards to shifting and braking (mtb shifter pods are simpler than sti's and far less likely to be damaged). Bar ends and ergo style grips will do the job for me.