Tax, MOT & Insurance

Should bikes be Taxed, MOTed & Insured?

  • Yes

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • No

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • MOT only

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Insurance only

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Tax only

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • MOT & Insurance

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Tax & Insurance

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • MOT & Tax

    Votes: 1 100.0%

  • Total voters
    1
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GrasB

Veteran
Location
Nr Cambridge
No simply because you'd just price an otherwise viable form of transport out of peoples reach.

EDIT: Oh let's put this in perspective by pricing out people reach, if I went for the cheapest option to commute to work by public transport it actually comes out within £300/year of all the servicing, tax, insurance, etc costs owning a Smart twofour & using it exclusively for commuting to work! So if one can't afford a car one has to walk or cycle.
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
Taxing, insuring and MOTing bicycles are the sort of things politicians have fantasies about. That they haven't done it tells you a considerable amount about how viable it is.
 

vernon

Harder than Ronnie Pickering
Location
Meanwood, Leeds
User3143 said:
I'd be happy for some sort of MOT to be introduced, would encourage maintenance and for people not to ride on a bag of shoot with no brakes.

You know how to make yourself popular with fixie riders don't you? :laugh:
 

4F

Active member of Helmets Are Sh*t Lobby
Location
Suffolk.
vernon said:
You know how to make yourself popular with fixie riders don't you? :smile:

Hipsters ride without brakes, "fixed" riders are not that stupid :laugh:
 

GrasB

Veteran
Location
Nr Cambridge
4F said:
Hipsters ride without brakes, "fixed" riders are not that stupid :laugh:
+1 almost all the serious riders I see on fixed/single speed bikes have two brakes. The ones without brakes seem to live in town & be ridden by people who ride a fixie for fashion more than anything else.
 
I tried it once when I was younger and dafter ... made a fixie and thought "sod it, no brakes"

2 commutes and I'd had enough

That was before fixies were the "in thing"
 

swee'pea99

Legendary Member
GrasB said:
+1 almost all the serious riders I see on fixed/single speed bikes have two brakes. The ones without brakes seem to live in town & be ridden by people who ride a fixie for fashion more than anything else.
Hmm. There is of course a fundamental difference between the 'fixed/single speed bikes' you lump together. I've never made a study, but I'd guess that overwhelmingly fixed riders have just a front brake, SS riders, two.
 

4F

Active member of Helmets Are Sh*t Lobby
Location
Suffolk.
[quote name='swee'pea99']Hmm. There is of course a fundamental difference between the 'fixed/single speed bikes' you lump together. I've never made a study, but I'd guess that overwhelmingly fixed riders have just a front brake, SS riders, two.[/QUOTE]

Well I have only ever seen 5 other fixed riders out and about and they have all had 2 brakes. Saying that I cannot remember the last time I had to use the rear, probably the first week of riding fixed and my first hill.
 

slowmotion

Quite dreadful
Location
lost somewhere
A big NO from me. Leave me alone. I like the freedom.
 

swee'pea99

Legendary Member
4F said:
Well I have only ever seen 5 other fixed riders out and about and they have all had 2 brakes. Saying that I cannot remember the last time I had to use the rear, probably the first week of riding fixed and my first hill.
Sure they woz fixed & not SS?...Hmmmm?...

(Can't say I look that closely - both are thick on the ground in London, and I don't tend to scrutinise.)
 

dondare

Über Member
Location
London
The public roads are paid for though all taxes; although one might generalize that residential roads are funded from Council Tax and major roads through all the others.
The public has a right to use these roads irrespective of how much tax they pay; the unemployed and homeless are not banned from the roads.
Using a vehicle with an engine on these roads requires a licence fee to be paid. This is known as Vehicle Excise Duty (colloquially as road tax) but the owner of the vehicle does not become the owner of the road. VED is not hypothecated either so motor vehicle owners do not pay for the roads any more than anyone else.
Vehicles without engines do not incur VED, because they don't have engines. Anyone, whether they are car owners or non-car owners, has a right to use a non-motor vehicle on the public roads.

Taxes, duties, licence fees, tolls and tariffs exist both to raise money and to control behaviour. A new tax on bicycles would not raise a significant aqmount of revenue for the government unless it was unjustifiably high. (In which case people would simply not pay it anyway.) Any licence requirement would discourage cycling which is not something that the Govt. want to do. There is simply no reason for a "road tax" for cyclists and there never will be.

MOTs and insurance are needed for potentially dangerous and destructive vehicles, which bikes are not. It is nevertheless illegal to use an unsafe bike on the road and cyclists are liable for any damage that they might inflict. A prudent cyclist keeps his bike in good order and has personal liability insurance even tho' the law does not enforce these proactively.
 

Foghat

Freight-train-groove-rider
I do enjoy the old 'road tax' semantic argument, or more particularly seeing it vociferously and illogically fumbled.

Of course it's perfectly sensible, acceptable and correct to refer to it as 'road tax' and expect people to understand the term precisely. Car owners only need to pay VED if they use the vehicle on public roads - the emissions angle is a way of scaling it and for the government to influence purchasing decisions in a bid to reduce environmental impact, and you can emit, without paying any emissions penalty, as much as you like in a car on private land if you never use/park it on public roads. So, obviously at least as much a road tax as an emissions tax - i.e. it only applies if you use the vehicle on-road (although one can admittedly argue that exacting an emissions tax is now VED's primary purpose, given that few cars are used exclusively off-road).

And the facts that some other road users are exempt from paying an emissions-scaled or other road tax and that VED revenue isn't ringfenced for road building/maintenance don't mean you can wildly conclude that the VED isn't a deliberate or even de facto road tax, as that is a clear logic failure - even those exempt from paying may have to display a 'free' tax disc when on the road, depending on the type of vehicle, and the free SORN option exists too (the clue is in the name). The fact that fee-payment liability doesn't fall on ALL road users is irrelevant to the semantics and efficacy of terms.

So stop the fallacious and specious argument that 'road tax' doesn't exist, because it quite clearly does for certain types of road user (colloquially and logically, as they are taxed for using the road, not just (and, with a SORN, even) for making emissions), and the OP is quite reasonably asking whether it should be extended to bicycles, which as pointed out by others here it certainly shouldn't for various reasons.
 

GrasB

Veteran
Location
Nr Cambridge
Foghat, Unfortunately you've completely missed the point of the whole argument as the point of not having 'road tax' is a conceptual one. The problem is 'road tax' seen by people as a tax that is paying for the road, this is a false & the view of VED as a road tax needs to be changed. VED is a licence fee to get access to public roads, one could call it a road access licence, & there are classes of vehicles that are exempt from paying for this licence. The very fact there are vehicles which are VED exempt in its self shows it's not a tax but licence fee.

swee'pea99, no I didn't lump them together, which is why mention both types of single gear bike. Though the legal precedent is leg braking is viable form of brake in reality leg braking is not substitute for a rear brake.
 

dondare

Über Member
Location
London
Foghat said:
I do enjoy the old 'road tax' semantic argument, or more particularly seeing it vociferously and illogically fumbled.

It's fun enough to argue this point on forum sites and message boards or in bars; but trying to explain "Vehicle Excise Duty" and "hypothecation" to some ignorant oaf in tin box in the heat of the moment is likely to be fruitless.

Foghat said:
Of course it's perfectly sensible, acceptable and correct to refer to it as 'road tax' and expect people to understand the term precisely.

But this is the problem. Call it "Road Tax" and it's completely misunderstood.
Unfortunately Vehicle Excise Duty isn't a very helpful alternative.

Foghat said:
Car owners only need to pay VED if they use the vehicle on public roads - the emissions angle is a way of scaling it and for the government to influence purchasing decisions in a bid to reduce environmental impact, and you can emit, without paying any emissions penalty, as much as you like in a car on private land if you never use/park it on public roads. So, obviously at least as much a road tax as an emissions tax - i.e. it only applies if you use the vehicle on-road (although one can admittedly argue that exacting an emissions tax is now VED's primary purpose, given that few cars are used exclusively off-road).

And the facts that some other road users are exempt from paying an emissions-scaled or other road tax and that VED revenue isn't ringfenced for road building/maintenance don't mean you can wildly conclude that the VED isn't a deliberate or even de facto road tax, as that is a clear logic failure - even those exempt from paying may have to display a 'free' tax disc when on the road, depending on the type of vehicle, and the free SORN option exists too (the clue is in the name). The fact that fee-payment liability doesn't fall on ALL road users is irrelevant to the semantics and efficacy of terms.

So stop the fallacious and specious argument that 'road tax' doesn't exist, because it quite clearly does for certain types of road user (colloquially and logically, as they are taxed for using the road, not just (and, with a SORN, even) for making emissions), and the OP is quite reasonably asking whether it should be extended to bicycles, which as pointed out by others here it certainly shouldn't for various reasons.

Road Tax doesn't exist as such because it is none of the things that people think it is. If they understood it at all they wouldn't claim that cyclists should pay it or that motorists (and only motorists) pay for the roads.
 

wafflycat

New Member
dondare said:
But this is the problem. Call it "Road Tax" and it's completely misunderstood.
Unfortunately Vehicle Excise Duty isn't a very helpful alternative.

It could be more accurately explained to those who can't understand that it isn't a 'road tax' by calling it a motor vehicle tax?
 
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