TdF Stage 14 SPOILER

[Crompton]

there is dancing in the streets and a public holiday has been declared.

You misunderstand the situation, they are in fact on strike.

 

[Chuffy]

You misunderstand the situation, they are in fact on strike.

Ah, they think he should have been sent back to Monaco and made to ride the route again as a punishment?

 

[yello]

What's the opinon in France, yello?

I can't honestly say that the commentators called it immediately since my French isn't good enough. Maybe Will knows as he posted it here pretty quickly. I do know that it did go quiet immediately after the finish until the official announcement was made.

Subsequently, there has been little discussion, simply that Cavendish was disqualified. It seems nobody feels there to be anything contentious about the decision, it simply is as it is. That said, I'm sure there are people here that have cause to smile given Cavendish's previous comments!

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Do you actually believe the fact that Hushovd doesn't like Cav swayed the commissaires'opinions?

Err...no. Where did I say that? Are you (and apparently Chuffy too) reading a fantasy version of what I wrote?

 

[rich p]

Err...no. Where did I say that? Are you (and apparently Chuffy too) reading a fantasy version of what I wrote?

Ok so the commissaires didn't take prejudice into consideration and it was a fair ruling as far as they were concerned and the fact that Hushovd was pissed off with Cavendish is irrelevant. Is that fair?

 

[Flying_Monkey]

Ok so the commissaires didn't take prejudice into consideration and it was a fair ruling as far as they were concerned and the fact that Hushovd was pissed off with Cavendish is irrelevant. Is that fair?

I feel like you are living in a some parallel universe to me right now.

I really don't know what you are arguing with. Certainly not with anything I've said - I've just checked, and nowhere have I even hinted that I might believe that the commissaires were prejudiced or that this had anything to do with what Thor and Cav feel about each other for that matter. Nowhere.

Why not go back and read what I actually wrote, and argue with that if you want, but I can't respond to something that has no relationship to what I said.

Sorry.

 

[rich p]

"I like both riders, but Thor basically realised that his only chance of making certain of the jersey was to get Cav disqualified on what was the last sprintable stage before Paris. You may regard this as very clever gamesmanship, but it was undoubtedly a tactic on his part"

This is one of your quotes which implied to me that Hushovd had some master plan and influence in the decision.

Sorry

 

[Chuffy]

"I like both riders, but Thor basically realised that his only chance of making certain of the jersey was to get Cav disqualified on what was the last sprintable stage before Paris. You may regard this as very clever gamesmanship, but it was undoubtedly a tactic on his part"

This is one of your quotes which implied to me that Hushovd had some master plan and influence in the decision.

Sorry

I think we're mixing up what Marinyork said and implied, what I was arguing in contradiction and FM's interpretation of what I was arguing plus his apparent gift for reading minds. Shall we all start again? I'll go first:-

"Thor looked really annoyed, he made a complaint. I think he made that complaint because he was genuinely aggrieved (as evidenced by his reaction on the line). Robbie McEwan seemed to agree that there was a genuine cause for complaint and that Cav was out of order. I don't actually care all that much either way and I don't hate Cav. If anyone wants to argue that Cav is unpopular (with the referees and Thor) and that "Thor realised that his only chance of making certain of the jersey was to get Cav disqualified" then I want evidence or I am entitled to dismiss it as an unfounded assumption."

Right, who's going next?

 

[Flying_Monkey]

I think you are indeed mixing up me and Marinyork.

To make it crystal clear, I don't think Thor had a 'master plan' or any influence over the decision.

He tried something tactical - that is of low cunning in response to a situation he realised he could take advantage of. Possibly his last role of the dice. It worked. There's no conspiracy here. He may well have been angry at the time (sprinters are always pumped up and convinced that they are the rightful winner - they have to be). But that's hardly the point. He could have decided not to challenge the result, accepted the outcome and continued to fight for the jersey on the road. I would have maintained more of my respect for him if he had. He didn't chose that route. If his challenge had failed, I would still be making the same observation about his tactics, except that I would be pleased that they hadn't succeeded. If it had been the other way around, and Cav had been doing the complaining, I would have been equally critical of him.

Call me odd, but I don't like people 'winning' by trying their luck on the interpretation of regulations. I like people winning by coming first. And my view, which was clearly not shared by the official in question or Chuffy, is that Cav in this case, won, and Thor should have sucked it up.

 

[yello]

FM, I see what you are saying (even if I do find it a touch corinthian! ) but, to be clear in my own head, I assume to accept Hushovd's right to make a complaint?

A general question, to all - does a complaint need to be made before the race commissioners can take a judgement? That is, could Cavendish have been dq'ed if nobody had said anything?

 

[Flying_Monkey]

A general question, to all - does a complaint need to be made before the race commissioners can take a judgement? That is, could Cavendish have been dq'ed if nobody had said anything?

No, the Commissaires (and in fact any race official) can report any infringement of regulations. Clear irregularities are often punished without any complaint being made by another rider or team official.

Of course, Hushovd had the right to make a complaint, as does anyone. My argument was simply with whether he should have (i.e. whether he was morally right) and whether he was actually correct in his complaint. I don't think he was correct or right.

Others clearly disagree.

I don't think it worth going on any more about it though. It might have determined the outcome of the Green Jersey competition, but there's a lot more going on in the race.

 

[yello]

Others clearly disagree.

Yes, I'm afraid I do. Hushvold was entitled to complain and I believe he had just cause too. The race commissioners clearly thought so too. I wonder if they would have acted without his protest? Maybe we'll never know!

I don't think it worth going on any more about it though.

Well I hope you'll allow others to, if they so wish

 

[Chuffy]

My argument was simply with whether he should have (i.e. whether he was morally right) and whether he was actually correct in his complaint. I don't think he was correct or right.

That's rather different to making a categorical statement (which you can't prove and which can only be an assumption) that he made a deliberate decision to get Cav disqualified. That is the bit I have trouble accepting.

And my view, which was clearly not shared by the official in question or Chuffy, is that Cav in this case, won, and Thor should have sucked it up.

Interesting, I don't recall arguing anything about the detail of case itself. More assumptions FM, or are you confusing me with Yello?

 

[yello]

Thoughts; if one is to continue in the 'sporting' theme, and just a consideration, wasn't Cavendish denying Hushovd the chance to compete? Is that 'sporting'?