@Roleur1 - I've just compared our rides on stage 1 of this month's chaingang where it looks like you also rode at full pelt down the big hill whilst I know I would have backed off when the speed was blue. Our speeds on the big descent are very similar and our max speed almost identical (66.2kph vs 66.3 kph!) and at that max speed I'm doing 167 watts and you're doing 288 watts. So from this I would conclude that you're right and we're in "auto-pilot" when descending in blue and whatever pedalling power you're doing probably doesn't make any difference.
Team BKool CycleChat
- Thread starter Peteaud
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So in a simulator there are benefits to stop/slow pedaling to aid recovery, pretty much like in the real world if they gradient is steep enough. However on less steep gradients you can also get a benefit from not pedaling too hard unlike on the road where you need to apply power to sustain a speed?
No that's not what I'm saying. I'm talking about when the speed turns blue in the simulator which only happens on the steeper descents, when you're going fast enough (same as real life)
Mark, we've discussed this on/off effect for quite some time now and I think it's fair to say that we've split it into two categories. I think we've more or less banned one category and said that the other is fair game (but I think the discussion continues). The banned type is when you reduce your power so much that the unit allows the resistance to drop so much that when you apply power again your speed will quickly head towards 40mph and beyond even if you are riding uphill. It's not like you can be constantly doing 40mph but the speed does average out as considerably higher. As a final test to satisfy myself that this was actually happening (because someone recently said that it didn't make any difference) I challenged AAAC on last weeks chaingang ride to see if I could win by on/offing the illegal way.
http://www.bkool.com/bkoolSessionHistory/showSessionSummary/1957383
The end result (not saved in results) was that I won only just using only 200watts average. The power graph is ultra spikey. I was generally powering up to 5-600 watts then just freewheeling until the power dropped to near zero then repeat. This is not allowed in Chaingang rides or Mountain goat rides. The penalty for this in a Mountain goat ride (where this riding style is lethal) is to double the time for your next ride.
I do however totally see your point regarding the other type of on/offing which I think needs a new name. It has been classed before as efficient riding because it is exploiting the freewheeling downhill so you have more energy to attack the next hill and use the "slingshot effect" which I guess is programed in by bkool to be like momentum carrying your speed already built up. The efficient riding type has become a bit instinctive to me now perhaps unfortunately and I'd have to train myself to get back into a more steady power ride, which I'm planning to do on the next handicap race. I think this needs much discussion because we have actively encouraged drafting and we have even done calculations (well Geoff has) to prove that even in the real world, a cyclist can make gains by keeping more power for the hills as this is where more time can be saved.
The mountain goat league has no such problems because we know that constant power is the most efficient way to ride and the other type of on/offing is illegal. There are other trainer types but we separate out the results in cases where one type has a big advantage over others.
For the Chaingang I think we may need to find a middle ground to try and even out the effect. This is after all not just turboing for fitness, but also for fun and I would say should be tactical and including the mind games that have always gone on, which people seem to enjoy.
We could go on to suggest that everyone must run the same control tyre at the same psi so that we're all on a level playing field. If further discussions lead to that then I'd be happy to go along with it. I actually think that tyre type and psi make more difference to speed than the efficient riding styles discussed above.
No offence taken btw. I just think we need to further discuss and get everyone's thoughts.
I can't speak for others, but I don't think any of us are trying to exploit the on/off effect when we ride together. It's just that it seems impossible to ride in a group like you would in the real world. I really try every time, but we always seem to end up yoyoing back and forth.
Oops, sorry. I'm sure I saw that mentioned as an Armstrong quote somewhere
.
Alfie_Gooner
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Norfolk
My personal opinion would be to set some sort of rule for say the handicap races that says you are not allowed to "cheat" the system in any way, this would ensure everyone is on the same level playing field and that results are all valid.
How refreshing would it be to see everyone at the start line with the pedals not turning until their alloted start time rather than being on the start line and seeing someone just appear and vanish at high speed....lol
How refreshing would it be to see everyone at the start line with the pedals not turning until their alloted start time rather than being on the start line and seeing someone just appear and vanish at high speed....lol
Add
Guru
- Location
- Powys, Wales
As I'm in the middle of the pack I'm not too bothered what people do tbh. I will always have a variety of ability above and behind me, whatever tactics or techniques they are using.
I was powering into the inclines on the handicap yesterday and found myself wondering if it was one of the things you were all talking about. But it is exactly what I would do on the road, I always power into the hills.
I personally say, do what you want. I will be pitting myself against you all, whatever methods you are using.
I was powering into the inclines on the handicap yesterday and found myself wondering if it was one of the things you were all talking about. But it is exactly what I would do on the road, I always power into the hills.
I personally say, do what you want. I will be pitting myself against you all, whatever methods you are using.
Add
Guru
- Location
- Powys, Wales
Problem with that is that it becomes tricky to extract run times accurately.
Also, as long as they use the same techniques in each attempt of the handicap race, the advantages should in effect become void.
Mark, we've discussed this on/off effect for quite some time now and I think it's fair to say that we've split it into two categories. I think we've more or less banned one category and said that the other is fair game (but I think the discussion continues). The banned type is when you reduce your power so much that the unit allows the resistance to drop so much that when you apply power again your speed will quickly head towards 40mph and beyond even if you are riding uphill. It's not like you can be constantly doing 40mph but the speed does average out as considerably higher. As a final test to satisfy myself that this was actually happening (because someone recently said that it didn't make any difference) I challenged AAAC on last weeks chaingang ride to see if I could win by on/offing the illegal way.
http://www.bkool.com/bkoolSessionHistory/showSessionSummary/1957383
The end result (not saved in results) was that I won only just using only 200watts average. The power graph is ultra spikey. I was generally powering up to 5-600 watts then just freewheeling until the power dropped to near zero then repeat. This is not allowed in Chaingang rides or Mountain goat rides. The penalty for this in a Mountain goat ride (where this riding style is lethal) is to double the time for your next ride.
I do however totally see your point regarding the other type of on/offing which I think needs a new name. It has been classed before as efficient riding because it is exploiting the freewheeling downhill so you have more energy to attack the next hill and use the "slingshot effect" which I guess is programed in by bkool to be like momentum carrying your speed already built up. The efficient riding type has become a bit instinctive to me now perhaps unfortunately and I'd have to train myself to get back into a more steady power ride, which I'm planning to do on the next handicap race. I think this needs much discussion because we have actively encouraged drafting and we have even done calculations (well Geoff has) to prove that even in the real world, a cyclist can make gains by keeping more power for the hills as this is where more time can be saved.
The mountain goat league has no such problems because we know that constant power is the most efficient way to ride and the other type of on/offing is illegal. There are other trainer types but we separate out the results in cases where one type has a big advantage over others.
For the Chaingang I think we may need to find a middle ground to try and even out the effect. This is after all not just turboing for fitness, but also for fun and I would say should be tactical and including the mind games that have always gone on, which people seem to enjoy.
We could go on to suggest that everyone must run the same control tyre at the same psi so that we're all on a level playing field. If further discussions lead to that then I'd be happy to go along with it. I actually think that tyre type and psi make more difference to speed than the efficient riding styles discussed above.
No offence taken btw. I just think we need to further discuss and get everyone's thoughts.
Good post Bill.
As you say this has already been discussed and some really good points made. Ultimately I think it's an issue that can really only be addressed by Bkool adjusting their software to reduce the benefit of this style of riding.
Because in a race, competitive people are bound to do what they can to go as fast as possible - it's human nature. And there are other features of the software we do all exploit if we can - fast starts, blue downhill speed, drafting etc - so it's not surprising some people also exploit this as well, to some extent or other.
I don't really do it as it doesn't feel natural to me, but as I said earlier, I am gradually changing my style of riding to try to become as efficient as I can within the Bkool environment, and the likes of Bill and LBHIFI have been doing this much longer than me so are further along the road of being perfecting their style of riding to maximise speed - and because of the way the software works this is probably likely to lead you to a more on/off style of riding I guess?
Having said that, an awareness of the big effect the extreme use of this can have is good, because over-use of it would probably spoil the races and turn them into one big on/off spinning session which I don't think anyone wants!
<Tommy>
Illegitimi non carborundum
- Location
- Camden, London
Mark, we've discussed this on/off effect for quite some time now and I think it's fair to say that we've split it into two categories. I think we've more or less banned one category and said that the other is fair game (but I think the discussion continues). The banned type is when you reduce your power so much that the unit allows the resistance to drop so much that when you apply power again your speed will quickly head towards 40mph and beyond even if you are riding uphill. It's not like you can be constantly doing 40mph but the speed does average out as considerably higher. As a final test to satisfy myself that this was actually happening (because someone recently said that it didn't make any difference) I challenged AAAC on last weeks chaingang ride to see if I could win by on/offing the illegal way.
http://www.bkool.com/bkoolSessionHistory/showSessionSummary/1957383
The end result (not saved in results) was that I won only just using only 200watts average. The power graph is ultra spikey. I was generally powering up to 5-600 watts then just freewheeling until the power dropped to near zero then repeat. This is not allowed in Chaingang rides or Mountain goat rides. The penalty for this in a Mountain goat ride (where this riding style is lethal) is to double the time for your next ride.
I do however totally see your point regarding the other type of on/offing which I think needs a new name. It has been classed before as efficient riding because it is exploiting the freewheeling downhill so you have more energy to attack the next hill and use the "slingshot effect" which I guess is programed in by bkool to be like momentum carrying your speed already built up. The efficient riding type has become a bit instinctive to me now perhaps unfortunately and I'd have to train myself to get back into a more steady power ride, which I'm planning to do on the next handicap race. I think this needs much discussion because we have actively encouraged drafting and we have even done calculations (well Geoff has) to prove that even in the real world, a cyclist can make gains by keeping more power for the hills as this is where more time can be saved.
The mountain goat league has no such problems because we know that constant power is the most efficient way to ride and the other type of on/offing is illegal. There are other trainer types but we separate out the results in cases where one type has a big advantage over others.
For the Chaingang I think we may need to find a middle ground to try and even out the effect. This is after all not just turboing for fitness, but also for fun and I would say should be tactical and including the mind games that have always gone on, which people seem to enjoy.
We could go on to suggest that everyone must run the same control tyre at the same psi so that we're all on a level playing field. If further discussions lead to that then I'd be happy to go along with it. I actually think that tyre type and psi make more difference to speed than the efficient riding styles discussed above.
No offence taken btw. I just think we need to further discuss and get everyone's thoughts.
Good post thanks bill. Out of interest is there a specific tyre you'd recommend? I'm assuming tyres with the least tread detail = more surface area = better grip? I'm running a conti gp (23mm). Mainly because it's an old tyre I don't use on the road anymore. But your post got me thinking maybe I should be using something in 25mm +?
Roleur1
1st cat roadie back in the day
- Location
- Newport Pagnell
Hello Bill. Thanks for taking my comments in your stride..I am a newbie here and I don't always pick up on all the points raised. I certainly don't want to make any enemies or think that I am a funny one to watch out for. Its a busy thread! Measured argument there Bill & all fair points.
It is a balancing act as to what would be considered fair / unfair. I don't think I will ever get into the on/off as its just not the way I ride & I want to see improvements in my Bkool watts/KG ratio so ill do what I have to keep that accurate & that means hitting the descents hard as well. In a real world TT you would want a slingshot to get up a climb as quick as possible, in a RR on the same hill you probably wouldnt attack at the bottom, but over the top when everyones legs are dead. In real terms there isn't much of a slingshot effect in the real world anyway - highest watts/kg will generally trump anything else and hills are mostly about W/kg.
Point taken about the tyre pressure & tyre. I would be up for that. I just fitted a rubino pro treaded 23mm over the previous worn out 25mm conti GP4 season - the conti gives better grip with a bigger contact patch & I get a lot of climbing wheel spin with the sharper 23mm, but there must be more rolling resistance from the fatter tyre. I hadn't really thought about it.
I don't think there is any penalty for freewheeling/backing off downhill - if your W/kg is not important then why not. maybe we should all just be cruising down the hills! Re the drafting thing...well again that as a racer in the real world its a skill that you need to hone as far as you can as do you want to be as good at forming and keeping your place in an echelon. Its not cheating in the real world & I don't think we should think it is in the virtual one either.
gamesmanship - yes absolutely.....its part of the game real and virtual.
My ideal would be that our rides reflect what would happen on the road as closely as poss with as many of the controllable variables consistent through the group. After all, I want to compare myself against the strongest guys and know/accept that they are 5 - 10- 15% whatever better than me. Its one of the mirarcles of bike riding that you cannot hide from strength over weight and your place in the pecking order is immediately apparent! Love it.....
It is a balancing act as to what would be considered fair / unfair. I don't think I will ever get into the on/off as its just not the way I ride & I want to see improvements in my Bkool watts/KG ratio so ill do what I have to keep that accurate & that means hitting the descents hard as well. In a real world TT you would want a slingshot to get up a climb as quick as possible, in a RR on the same hill you probably wouldnt attack at the bottom, but over the top when everyones legs are dead. In real terms there isn't much of a slingshot effect in the real world anyway - highest watts/kg will generally trump anything else and hills are mostly about W/kg.
Point taken about the tyre pressure & tyre. I would be up for that. I just fitted a rubino pro treaded 23mm over the previous worn out 25mm conti GP4 season - the conti gives better grip with a bigger contact patch & I get a lot of climbing wheel spin with the sharper 23mm, but there must be more rolling resistance from the fatter tyre. I hadn't really thought about it.
I don't think there is any penalty for freewheeling/backing off downhill - if your W/kg is not important then why not. maybe we should all just be cruising down the hills! Re the drafting thing...well again that as a racer in the real world its a skill that you need to hone as far as you can as do you want to be as good at forming and keeping your place in an echelon. Its not cheating in the real world & I don't think we should think it is in the virtual one either.
gamesmanship - yes absolutely.....its part of the game real and virtual.
My ideal would be that our rides reflect what would happen on the road as closely as poss with as many of the controllable variables consistent through the group. After all, I want to compare myself against the strongest guys and know/accept that they are 5 - 10- 15% whatever better than me. Its one of the mirarcles of bike riding that you cannot hide from strength over weight and your place in the pecking order is immediately apparent! Love it.....
Wow just watched the clip of last nights action, nice one Geoff.
I'm blown away by the cadence rates of some of the other Guys - mind blowing!!
bobinski
Legendary Member
- Location
- Tulse Hill
I remain confused by the whole on/off debate. I agree none of us likely want to be riding at extremes to exploit failings in the bkool software. After all this is turbo'ing for fun and camaraderie more than anything as Bill says. But outside of the extremes, surely accelerating to keep someone at bay, or to overtake them is fair? Some can simply push more watts for longer to do so. Just like on the road. Especially on slight inclines where the impact is always the greater. If that then makes me or another rider faster downhill then that is surely ok? And then on the downhill i often pedal like crazy to get as much speed as possible too, often blowing up and freewheeling slowly to recover. As the speed falls and recovery kicks in i will try to pedal faster. Is that on/off? I don't know, I certainly don't seem to go faster than everyone else on the downhills. As i have said before my fastest descent has been in Zwift! And i was overtaken!
Perhaps the answer is to see if Ant + fec produces the same issues on bkool? I don't know if this would work but perhaps if we all manually connect rather than auto connect our turbos through bsim that might trigger a leveler playing field without the extreme issues clearly set out here.
Perhaps the answer is to see if Ant + fec produces the same issues on bkool? I don't know if this would work but perhaps if we all manually connect rather than auto connect our turbos through bsim that might trigger a leveler playing field without the extreme issues clearly set out here.
Brendan Parker
Veteran
- Location
- essex, england
wow
sorry to lower the tone but I thought you just peddled as fast as you could for as long as you could 
as we all know "everyday is a school day"
sorry to lower the tone but I thought you just peddled as fast as you could for as long as you could as we all know "everyday is a school day"
