Team BKool CycleChat

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BILL S

Guru
Location
London
Just did the Copenhagen Gran Fondo 25.4km TT, and I think it is safe to say that 345 Bkool watts is not enough to qualify for the world championships agegroup 50-54.
Despite knowing how important a good warmup is, I somehow failed to get a proper warmup, and it took about 4 km to get over the shock.
I was using the Bkool Pro to warm up, but it can't really give you enough resistance without without power supply. I was also a bit too confident in the bike steering capabilities, and found out the hard way how bad they really are, crashing in the last turn before finish. Fortunately, a low speed crash, but it cost me about 30 seconds I reckon.
Lets be optimistic and say I could have done it a minute faster with a proper warmup, and that I didn't crash, then my 38:47 would be 37:17, still over half a minute from qualifying time.

Avg speed before the crash was 40.6 km/h (25,23 m/h)
http://www.strava.com/activities/304377586

Avg speed at finish was 39.29 km/h (24,42 m/h)

Once you get up to that kind of level even the guys of 50+ are performing much better than just about everyone. I did a bit of UK national mtb racing last year and that was a dose of reality for me. Of course that was before my turbo days, but still, even when I was at my best a month or two back I wouldn't expect to finish anywhere better than midfield if all was going well.
25.23 mph sounds pretty fast to me. When I do my local loop I try and usually fail to push it up to 22mph so I know just how hard it is once you get past 20mph. Of course it'll be a little bit easier in full TT mode and flatter circuit. But yeah, 345 bkool watts is a lot to us, but for World Championships that's probably just cruising power. I guess the thing to do is to try and get your jersey to go bkool blue and then take another pop at it :smile:. I forgot to ask you if you went to pro1 or did you jump straight to pro2? I'll be amazed if I ever get past pro1.
 

burndust

Parts unknown...baby
Have you updated the firmware? I helped a friend set up their new KICKR last week and found they had released a new firmware update.
Yup....This is what has caused the issue.....seems to have settled now....but it's a pain in the arse first thing in the morning when it no worky lol
 

LBHIFI

Veteran
Location
Liseleje
Once you get up to that kind of level even the guys of 50+ are performing much better than just about everyone. I did a bit of UK national mtb racing last year and that was a dose of reality for me. Of course that was before my turbo days, but still, even when I was at my best a month or two back I wouldn't expect to finish anywhere better than midfield if all was going well.
Hi Bill
Yeah, some really tough old geezers in this TT.
25.23 mph sounds pretty fast to me. When I do my local loop I try and usually fail to push it up to 22mph so I know just how hard it is once you get past 20mph. Of course it'll be a little bit easier in full TT mode and flatter circuit.
Yes, based on my own statistics, I'm arround 2 mph faster on my TT bike on a straight course, than on my thoroughbred race bike.
But yeah, 345 bkool watts is a lot to us, but for World Championships that's probably just cruising power. I guess the thing to do is to try and get your jersey to go bkool blue and then take another pop at it :smile:.
I think Pro 9 will do to qualify (need to drop the weekend beers for that to happend:laugh:) , but a blue jersey would make me a real contender.
I forgot to ask you if you went to pro1 or did you jump straight to pro2? I'll be amazed if I ever get past pro1.
No, i took a FTP test to go from pro 1 to 2.

My next step is to ride the Bkool version of the Gran Fondo TT, so that I can compare it to real life.
 

gbrown

Geoff on Bkool
Location
South Somerset
Just out of interest......how does BKool actually calculate your power?

Power is just a straight calculation from speed and resistance.

Power is force times speed. Force is the force you are applying to overcome the trainers resistance, in an equal and opposite Newtonian kind of way.

Since there is no power meter in the Bkool units, the actual resistance being applied must be presumed to be the same as the software requests. Clearly, there will be variations between bkool units when a certain resistance level is requested electronically as to what actual resistance is applied, and this will vary anyway depending on the speed of the roller.

Anyway, presuming a certain level of resistance, power can be calculated from that resistance and the speed of the roller.

Weight, wind, rolling resistance, etc. are not factors in the power being produced, power is just force times speed.

On a trainer there is no gravity, wind or indeed movement along the road, but in the real world they do factor in the resistance, and hence affect the the power required to achieve a speed, as they affect the resistance and hence the force needed to overcome the resistance.

So weight comes in, along with any factors applied for presumed wind and/or rolling resistance, in calculating the resistance to apply to simulate a desired gradient, wind, road surface, etc.

Hence if you tell it you weigh more it will apply more resistance to simulate the same gradient, and hence more power will be required to achieve the same speed at the higher resistance. So weight is not a factor in calculating the power, rather it is a factor in calculating the resistance to apply.

I have done repeated tests of the bkool pro against first a Powertap G3 and then a KICKR and also real life rides on the same circuits and the Bkool was not great at applying the correct resistance, a very difficult job as speed, gearing, cadence, temperature, strength of magnets, etc. all have such an impact. This meant that the calculation of power is done using an estimated level of resistance that can vary from actual resistance by differing amounts depending on speed, cadence, gearing, temperature and from Bkool unit to bkool unit.

Even highly calibrated power meters will struggle to agree with each other and only claim to be with +-2% or so, but my bkool figures differed by up to +-15% or more from my Powertap, and the KICKR reinforced this when I used it for the same sessions. I found at slow speeds the Bkool read too low, and at high speeds it read too high.

There is also the issue of resistance limits, as there is no doubt that the Bkool units, as with any trainer, has limits as to how much resistance it can supply. This means that in effect, when a certain gradient, weight, wind speed and road surface are simulated, at various points it will fail to apply enough resistance and the variation between presumed resistance and actual resistance will break down and the power figures will become much less accurate. This will depend on gearing, cadence, weight, etc. but on gradients much above 10-15% you can usually tell the resistance is not sufficient. What seems to happen is as you apply power against the resistance, if you supply enough power you overcome the limited resistance and it becomes easier to pedal.

So don't take the power figures too seriously, they are a very useful indicator and can give you a good idea of progress and a reasonable approximation of the probable power give or take 10% or 20% or so, but they are only an approximation.

Geoff
 
Thanks Geoff. My struggle is keeping any kind of watts on the level or downhill. It must factor in extra gravity enhancement for the extra pounds.
 
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LBHIFI

Veteran
Location
Liseleje
Well, I now have comparison data BKool vs real-life, and it looks like Bkool is a fair bit too optimistic. Avg. power is spot on with Strava's estimation, but the time I rode the TT on the BKool would have put me on the podium (4½ minutes faster).
Give or take a little, this means that a person in my age group (50-54) would need a Bkool time of 32:30 to qualify.

http://www.bkool.com/bkoolSessionHistory/showSessionSummary/1226111

And BTW, this is not a good track to try and change jersey colors. Too much up and down...constantly changing gears.
 

gbrown

Geoff on Bkool
Location
South Somerset
Thanks Geoff. My struggle is keeping any kind of watts on the level or downhill. It must factor in extra gravity enhancement for the extra pounds.

Hard to produce Watts on the downhill, as there is so little resistance to produce force against. Downhill it's best to rest and allow gravity (or simulated gravity) to do most of the work. Or get a KICKR where Bkool bizarrely don't bother to simulate gravity and hence it is exactly the same as the flat.

Should be OK on the level though.

It seems easier to produce big Watts on the steep uphill gradients, but that is partly because the Bkool trainer and software are conspiring to exaggerate the power you are producing, and almost certainly providing less resistance than is required to simulate the gradient accurately.

There is a reason that the FTP test is done at a gentle 2% gradient. In fact when doing FTP tests in the real world, I understand that gentle climbs are also recommended.

Geoff
 

RickB

professional procrastinator
Location
Norn Iron
Now here's an interesting comparison.

I did a very quick blast around some roads yesterday evening - 16 mile loop.

First time I've had the chance to compare outdoors with indoors. Uploaded it to Bkool and my wife did the circuit this morning. She was very close to my time - yet only made 129 Watts (under my account so weighing heavier too!)

If she was doing it on the roads, she would be miles back as she new to it and averages less than 14mph.

UPDATE:
It hasn't uploaded right. My wife has just informed me it was completely flat!!! Ignore the above.
 
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Now here's an interesting comparison.

I did a very quick blast around some roads yesterday evening - 16 mile loop.

First time I've had the chance to compare outdoors with indoors. Uploaded it to Bkool and my wife did the circuit this morning. She was very close to my time - yet only made 129 Watts (under my account so weighing heavier too!)

If she was doing it on the roads, she would be miles back as she new to it and averages less than 14mph.

Bkool makes life much easier for us!! :smile: Backs up what LBHIFI was finding on the TT.
Do you think the weight on the back wheel.makes a big difference? Monte had a post earlier about a lighter friend who couldn't make any speed using his heavier profile.
 

RickB

professional procrastinator
Location
Norn Iron
Do you think the weight on the back wheel.makes a big difference? Monte had a post earlier about a lighter friend who couldn't make any speed using his heavier profile.
Ignore my last post. It must have imported wrongly or I used the wrong format as it was completely flat!!!

I'm sure the heavier riders can get through power down better due to more weight in the roller but with montes case if the light guy had his own weight entered it likely wouldn't have been such an issue.
 

Monte

Über Member
Location
Somerset
Do you think the weight on the back wheel.makes a big difference? Monte had a post earlier about a lighter friend who couldn't make any speed using his heavier profile.

The Bkool calculates the heavier person and makes the resistance harder, watts per kgs etc... i think ?
 
Hi all, quick message to introduce myself, I'm new to the forum & Bkool. Got it at the weekend and have been impressed so far.

Noticed a few of you guys on numerous Bkool leaderboards so thought I'd sign up to the forum. I'm keen to join the group and get involved in any future sessions.


Thanks
Dene G
 

RickB

professional procrastinator
Location
Norn Iron
Hi all, quick message to introduce myself, I'm new to the forum & Bkool. Got it at the weekend and have been impressed so far.

Noticed a few of you guys on numerous Bkool leaderboards so thought I'd sign up to the forum. I'm keen to join the group and get involved in any future sessions.


Thanks
Dene G
Welcome Dene.

Always good to have new faces.

We have a mountain goat league in action at the minute (organised by BillS) and we also had a cyclechat league throughout the winter which finished last month (Organised by GBrown).. Look it up and join in the fun/torture. Whats your Bkool name?
 
Welcome Dene.

Always good to have new faces.

We have a mountain goat league in action at the minute (organised by BillS) and we also had a cyclechat league throughout the winter which finished last month (Organised by GBrown).. Look it up and join in the fun/torture. Whats your Bkool name?

Thanks for the warm welcome Rick,

Bkool name is 'Dene', look like I've just missed out on the winter league but I'm keen to join in with the mountain goats (Y) I've requested to join the league on Bkool (or at least it think i have), assume this need to be approved by the creator/admin prior to me doing any events?

Can't wait to get stuck in!! GHOGH
 

BILL S

Guru
Location
London
Hi Dene. Welcome to the forum and to the Mountain Goats. There's a bit of a lull at the moment due to everyone re-discovering their outdoor riding and in my case due to a hand injury meaning I can't put any weight on the bars. I've got a set of tri bars on order so hoping that'll help. Anyway, the leagues we had running all through the winter kept us all going and gave us a lot to discuss on here and of course lots of banter too:smile:. The Chain Gang league was especially fun as we had as many of us as possible all racing at the same time in 3D mode. Hopefully it'll start up again at some point. The Mountain Goats is not quite so much fun but great for fitness. You'll soon be moving up the levels if you do all the stages, and we'll hopefully keep it going all summer in one form or another.
 
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