TFL e-bike ban

[mjr]

basically people don;t convert folders - normally
hence the folders are nearly all made as legal ebike so are less likely to have a dogy battery
AND easy to distinguish from "others"

Plenty of 20 inch wheel motor kits on sale and I see them on the streets. And isn't the main problem supposed to be abnormal conversions?

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Plenty of 20 inch wheel motor kits on sale and I see them on the streets. And isn't the main problem supposed to be abnormal conversions?

The stats that TfL are working on show that they have seen very few (if any) force from folders

they are nearly all from non-folders

so it is nothing to do with how many are on the street - just the number causing problems on the trains (etc)

 

[T4tomo]

There's far too many hooky bikes out there currently using and abusing the system. Unfortunately a blanket ban is correct.

indeed and on most TFL journeys its probably as quick doing it on the roads on an ebike than it is by train &/or tube

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Another point is that folders - if genuine - often have internal batteries that make it unobvious that they are electric

If I took the stickers off ours then it would be difficult to tell that is has a motor without having a decent look
(the hub motor is a bit of a giveaway - but it is quite small!!)

 

[mjr]

The stats that TfL are working on show that they have seen very few (if any) force from folders

Where are those stats, please?

 

[mjr]

Another point is that folders - if genuine - often have internal batteries that make it unobvious that they are electric

I assume you mean built-as-e-bikes, as conversion kits like Swytch's are also genuine and very much obvious if you know anything much.

I don't think that's generally true, either. Many brands (example: Byocycle) have obvious batteries behind the seat post, or on a rear rack shelf, same as conversion kits, plus they have ⚡ symbols on the bike. Even the Brompton C Line has the word "Electric" emblazoned on the battery bag, in bright blue at least sometimes. They're much easier to identify as e-bikes than some of the Ribble ones with batteries in the bottle cage. I guess people will still be taking such bikes on TfL, but if it catches fire, they could be charged with breaching the conditions of carriage in addition to whatever else.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

The article says they have not seen folders bursting into flames
but have seen "other" ebike doing it

There was a fire at Luton airport parking. Destroyed the multi story. All cars are going to be banned from car parks.

 

[presta]

it's completely ridiculous to allow folded e-bikes when a hinge doesn't do anything to prevent a fire

They haven't said it does. It's about the correlation between the type of bike and the probability that it's been modified.

TfL apparently doesn't care if there's a battery in your backpack, even if it's a ticking firebomb.

In which case it would be sensible to ban e-bikes regardless of whether the battery has been removed, unless you're proposing to put guards at the entrances to search everyone for batteries before they enter.

If bikes were seized, and examined, its incovenient for the owner but they'd get the bike back.

Confiscating bikes until they can be tested isn't much different to banning them, in practice. Either way, you won't get to travel on the day you turn up, unless you submit the bike for testing in advance.

A hospital in Edinburgh recently put one a message to all staff banning e-bikes being taken into the building or parked up anywhere near it. It’s not just dodgy e-bikes, it’s people sourcing iffy battery packs to replace OEM ones that no longer hold a good charge.

There are also landlords banning them from their properties.

Refuse to come and get a good lawyer to sue their significant parts .

How many times in your life have you bothered suing somebody for bothering you with their tiresome rules?

They've not banned non folding cars from TfL roads yet and there have been far more fires of those.

There's no mass evacuation problem with cars on roads.

 

[mjr]

There's no mass evacuation problem with cars on roads.

Most TfL roads have no fire evacuation plan (the tunnels do). All TfL stations have evacuation plans, as do all the subsurface lines where e-bikes are allowed today. I doubt this is happening because those evacuation plans are deficient and unable to cope with fires. That would be a much bigger problem.

 

[classic33]

Most TfL roads have no fire evacuation plan (the tunnels do). All TfL stations have evacuation plans, as do all the subsurface lines where e-bikes are allowed today. I doubt this is happening because those evacuation plans are deficient and unable to cope with fires. That would be a much bigger problem.

Have you ever been on a train and had to evacuate, when not at a station?

 

[mjr]

Have you ever been on a train and had to evacuate, when not at a station?

I don't remember and there's currently nobody here to ask who would. A relative definitely has, but I wasn't with her on that journey. Have you?

And what point are you trying to make?

 

[wiggydiggy]

Confiscating bikes until they can be tested isn't much different to banning them, in practice. Either way, you won't get to travel on the day you turn up, unless you submit the bike for testing in advance.

My suggestion is based on this that TFL said "...it said that as it was difficult to differentiate between models a general ban was necessary until improved safety measures were in place."

They don't need to test in advance, simply make it a condition of travel that your bike has to be UK EAPC legal, and if suspected that it is not the traveller accepts their travel may be refused and/or the bike confiscated. The current TFL Conditions of travel I think already cover most of what I suggest, Section 9:

• 9.2 Staff can refuse permission for you to take any item onto our services. For example, you may be prevented from taking a bicycle on DLR services during the London Marathon. Such as an illegal EAPC.
• 9.5 You must not bring with you anything that:
  • is more than 2 metres long
  • you are unable to carry yourself (including on stairs and escalators) is hazardous or
    inflammable. Such as an illegal EAPC.

Just add an addional note those with illegal EAPCs will be reported to the BTP and they're golden.

 

[vickster]

Have you ever been on a train and had to evacuate, when not at a station?

I have it's a rather long way down to the tracks when there's no platform . A poor soul sadly jumped in front of the train I was on

 

[mjr]

The current TFL Conditions of travel I think already cover most of what I suggest, Section 9:

• 9.5 You must not bring with you anything that:
  • [...]
  • is hazardous or inflammable.

In other words, the fire-risk batteries were already banned, but they hadn't been enforcing the ban, so now all non-folding obvious e-bike users must be punished while they probably continue to fail to enforce the existing ban!

At most, all they needed to do was add the bit about the police and maybe state clearly that they regard visibly unapproved and/or modified and/or homebrew lithium batteries as hazardous and inflammable based on TfL's legendary "comprehensive safety review" (about which they've so far replied to me twice but still not sent) and that gateline agents may decide if a battery is hazardous and err on the side of caution.

 

[Time Waster]

So what is the dresired outcome with a ban? Surely it is to remove a risk. How can you identify a risk? Surely that takes knowledge, experience and the ability to identify if the risk is present. So what needs to be done to do that? OK here is where the issue is. No means to make it obvious the e-bike is safeand no means currently present to train staff to identifiy unsafe ones in a mass transit situation.

This is a difficult situation no matter what anyone makes out in defending e-bike use on mass transit. I have no solution and the way this is on 4 pages already I guess everyone posting here thinks TfL has no solution needed, no matter which side of the ban or no ban fence you sit on.

I have the POV that you ban all e-bikes or you make it so that safe e-bikes are obvious or unsafe ones are obvious perhaps by omission. No idea how the last two can happen but the complete ban is unfortunately an easy one. On a purely personal POV i think folding or not folding is not a surefire guarantee. It might decrease the risk but not eliminate it.

As to folding e-bikes being banned there was a guy who had one of those tiny wheeled, folding e-bikes. He got banned taking it on the local trains (Northern). It got him angry when someone asked him where his bike was.