The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

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subaqua

What’s the point
Location
Leytonstone
Another forum I frequent has had a thread evolve into a helmet debate with the usual arguments for and against.

I have a request , and it might be a little morbid.

where would I find the causes of death for the cyclist killed in London . So I can show that a helmet does not protect against a crush injury to the abdomen.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
Another forum I frequent has had a thread evolve into a helmet debate with the usual arguments for and against.

I have a request , and it might be a little morbid.

where would I find the causes of death for the cyclist killed in London . So I can show that a helmet does not protect against a crush injury to the abdomen.


didn't one of the papers (rivera, thompson even ) have numbers showing helmet wearing reduced lower leg injuries? The original authors had missed this benefit
 

srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
Another forum I frequent has had a thread evolve into a helmet debate with the usual arguments for and against.

I have a request , and it might be a little morbid.

where would I find the causes of death for the cyclist killed in London . So I can show that a helmet does not protect against a crush injury to the abdomen.
@redfalo (I think it is/was) used to/still does maintain a list.
 
@mjray, that is always a possibility, but one that in my case I would rate as near impossible. The impact that propelled me off my bike was such that I catapulted through the air and landing with enough force to imprint the stitching of my clothing onto my ass. A fetching image I think you'll agree....
I have been to lots of accidents involving all sorts of vehicles, I've seen people that should have been dead and have no injuries and vice versa, people killed by a single punch and people walking and talking after being stabbed 20+ times. Luck played a part in all these in dents and my own accident, and there are a million things that can happen or don't happen, but I will still wear my helmet as in my mind it gives me a level of protection that makes me happy.

.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
one thing I would say, at the risk of tempting fate, but this thread has this far remained fairly sensible . Maybe the bannage threat should be expanded. I used to like the pokitics threads (I'm odd like that), but now can't be arsed as they've been wrecked by name calling, straw-manning and "answer my question from 10 pages ago"
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
Not completely true. There are pedestrian and non-racing motorist crash helmets, but they are often laughed at as ridiculous, including by some people who wear and advocate cyclist crash helmets.

Yeah, but bar a few fruit loops, no one is seriously promoting pedestrian or motorist helmets, nor suggesting people are "stupid" or "brain dead" or "morons" for not wearing them.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
where would I find the causes of death for the cyclist killed in London . So I can show that a helmet does not protect against a crush injury to the abdomen.
There are two primary sources of crash data: STATS19 reports of the Metropolitan Police and the City of London Police; or the Hospital Episode Statistics (tends to be higher and cover incidents which were not reported to police too). To get the actual cause of death, you may need to cross-reference that with the register of deaths - I think STATS19 only records severity, not what the injuries actually were.

The impact that propelled me off my bike was such that I catapulted through the air and landing with enough force to imprint the stitching of my clothing onto my ass. A fetching image I think you'll agree....
Lovely, thank you for sharing that image(!) But forceful as it may have been, you can't easily tuck and cover your arse like most people instinctively do their head (video proof to the contrary welcome! :laugh: )

and there are a million things that can happen or don't happen, but I will still wear my helmet as in my mind it gives me a level of protection that makes me happy.
Great, wonderful, but I hope you realise it may be only in your mind and not reality.

Yeah, but bar a few fruit loops, no one is seriously promoting pedestrian or motorist helmets, nor suggesting people are "stupid" or "brain dead" or "morons" for not wearing them.
Yeah, but only a few fruit loops are seriously promoting cyclist helmets ;)
 

JMAG

Über Member
Location
Windsor
Hi folks. I'm pleasantly surprised that most of this has been so pleasant so far :smile:
+1

If you're banging your head, then you've already basically lost. Maybe a crash helmet may mitigate crash damage but often they seem to be adopted instead of minimising the sources of danger, which is not an acceptable approach to risk management in other fields. For example, in the Avoid/Control/Accept/Transfer model, crash helmets seem like accepting the risk of crashing and trying to protect part of the body. Wouldn't similar logic mean you should wear moderate body armour to protect the rest of the body?

If the possibility of banging my head exists at all, I would rather have a helmet on it. There has to be some sort of balance otherwise you just wouldn't ride on a road with other road users. I could no doubt do more on the road to minimise the sources of danger as you say, but how far should I take it? Cycle at 10mph max? Slow down every time I see a car? If I choose to ride on the road, I can not 100% control or pre-empt what every other road user around me will do at all times although I do try. I use lighting during the day, I check for traffic around me continually (not just before manoeuvres) including the use of a mirror (early warning, but I then shoulder check to show approaching vehicles that I am aware they are there). I know a bit about defensive riding from 25 years of riding motorbikes without 1 incident (I tell a lie - I rode into someone's garden fence on a friend's moped when I was 16, but I never crashed any of my bikes) i.e. most incidents will occur right in front of you between 10 and 2 on a clock face.

The risk acceptance argument could equally apply to wearing a seat belt in a car or driving a car with air-bags. There can be a large difference in risk modified behaviour where people are said to take more risks because they have a helmet on. I have 2 queries regarding this. 1. Is this more than conjecture in trying to explain statistics that don't appear to make sense? 2. What comes first, the decision to do something risky leading to one donning a helmet or does the donning of a helmet lead otherwise cautious people to do something risky? Whatever the case, it may be true in some cases, but it's impossible to say what percentage of helmet wearers this applies to unless you have very detailed data based on interviews. I'm not sure it applies to me as much as putting a car seatbelt on doesn't change how I drive because I always wear a seatbelt. However, if a teenager fits Recaro seats with a 4 point harness to his hot hatch, I'm not thinking to myself "What a sensible and safety conscious young man". lol

Haven't many of us snagged our crash helmets on low-hanging branches and low arches? I know I did.

Not me, but I see your point. Obviously, we are better at judging heights that we can fit through with a bare head rather than with a crash helmet on. Or a top hat for that matter, unless you wear a top hat most of the time. The art of getting into a horse drawn carriage with a top hat on is a lost art. N.B. I'm trying to be funny, not sarcastic :smile:
 

redfalo

known as Olaf in real life
Location
Brexit Boomtown
@redfalo (I think it is/was) used to/still does maintain a list.
here you go
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oBZ-aQWBdrYT0NM40KVAKz0ei3xQEbX3hJccnBr5JT8/edit?hl=de#gid=0

The data indeed shows that head injuries are rarely the cause of a cyclist dying in London traffic. By far the biggest risk is being crushed by a lorry.

However - this is important! and meant as an agnostic statement of facts, not as a value judgement - this does not necessarily say much about the protective value of helmets per se, as I do not systematically track serious but non-fatal injuries, which by far outnumber fatalities. About 12 riders die each year on London roads, but 450 to 500 (numbers from the back of my head, don't quote) are seriously injured - but only a small fraction of them show up in my list, and nobody knows what injuries they suffered and if they were wearing a helmet or not.
 
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sanddancer

Senior Member
Location
N/Wales
Wrapping your head in what used to be cavity wall insulation (maybe it still is - I've not bought any for years) and expecting a few holes to vent and cool it is a :banghead: approach to overheating!


I was joking :rolleyes:


So on that basis you would adadvocate the use of helmets in winter ? :tongue:

I have already thought about not wearing one next summer .
i dont care who wears them and who doesnt
what I wouldnt like to see is them being made compulsory ;)
 
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