The CycleChat Helmet Debate Thread

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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
the only test I can suggest as to will a helmet help, is put helmet on - headbut a brick wall as hard as you can. then take helmet off and repeat. - which results in less blood / injury. - in that impact the helmet probably made a difference. - so it worked (we hope) beyond that , different impact could be completely different result - its upto you after that to decide if it will make a difference. - so do, some don't.
Oh good grief! That sort of nonsense is often suggested by helmet believers but it has serious flaws in its logic. Picking one: it assumes the helmet doesn't itself increase the probability of impact. The simple test to demonstrate one aspect of how it might is: walk under a beam so low that your hair brushes it (or would brush it if you still had hair! :laugh: ) as you pass. Then put a helmet on and repeat the walk identically and enjoy the impact. Which hurt more? And I leave it up to you whether your head is likely to have a near-miss with something after you leave the bike in a collision.

I mean faith in the helmet. in the same way we have faith in , the brakes on the car. - they have demonstrated in the past they worked, so you have faith they will work when you need them
No I bloody don't! I test them as I leave the parking space and generally decelerate/brake early when possible so that I have more time to deal with any unexpected failures or underperformance (or bizarre actions by other road users). Don't they teach people to check their brakes when they're learning to drive any more? If not, I can guess at a reason why so many more motorists seem to be demolishing inanimate objects!
all the empirical evidence in the world won't change your attitude unless you believe in helmets.
That seems backwards: surely if you "believe in helmets" then no empirical evidence will change your attitude? Whereas if you are a scientist without beliefs about helmets either way, then you follow the evidence?
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
helmets are made to various standards to comply with EEC and US manufacture regulations.
these scientifically demonstrate the helmet can withstand certain impacts.

now a helmet manufacturer can say its made to this or that standard, he cannot say it will protect you as it would lead him to be liable to claims. - actual impacts and circumstances of an impact are to variable.

the only test I can suggest as to will a helmet help, is put helmet on - headbut a brick wall as hard as you can. then take helmet off and repeat. - which results in less blood / injury. - in that impact the helmet probably made a difference. - so it worked (we hope) beyond that , different impact could be completely different result - its upto you after that to decide if it will make a difference. - so do, some don't.

Faith - I mean not in god or some man made deity (same thing isn't it?) - I mean faith in the helmet. in the same way we have faith in , the brakes on the car. - they have demonstrated in the past they worked, so you have faith they will work when you need them. - there's absolutely no guarantee they will , in-fact they may cause the crash (as in skidding). Helmets tend to stay on heads that have experience bumps were you felt it made a difference, - you have a degree in faith in them.

all the empirical evidence in the world won't change your attitude unless you believe in helmets.
What a load of complete bollocks. The standards and tests do not even attempt to represent real world physics.

As for banging my head against a wall, I've banged it against a truck in a real world cycling accident. Yes it hurt, would it have hurt if I'd been wearing a helmet, yes. Would the helmet have done anything to protect me? Unlikely, certainly I've not seen test results for a helmet hitting a flat, vertical stationary surface in excess of 25mph.

If your helmet has worked in the past, I assume you have bought a new helmet. And you replace it as per manufacturers instructions every 3 years?
 

Justinslow

Lovely jubbly
Location
Suffolk
So where is this evidence? Why aren't the manufacturers shouting it from the rooftops rather than just lobbying people like the UCI to promote helmet use?

We're now on page 102 and the only evidential study we've seen so far is one that was discredited years ago.

If you could show me 80% proof that a helmet would (not could or might) prevent injury then I would probably wear one but I doubt that exist cos if it did and I was working for SpeciaTrekBell it would be at the top of my advert in a very large font.
I'm not sure they would, motorcycle helmet manufacturers don't put it at the top of their ads. They all have to pass a test to be saleable, and they all do. Therefore they all are adequate, then you choose on quality, comfort, branding, colour, what your favourite racer wears, the riding you do (full face/open face/flip up) etc. Pretty similar to cycle helmets actually.
The argument regarding whether motorcycle helmets are effective is also similar, yes at lower speeds, at over 100 mph hitting a solid object probably not!
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
I'm not sure they would, motorcycle helmet manufacturers don't put it at the top of their ads. They all have to pass a test to be saleable, and they all do. Therefore they all are adequate, then you choose on quality, comfort, branding, colour, what your favourite racer wears, the riding you do (full face/open face/flip up) etc. Pretty similar to cycle helmets actually.
The argument regarding whether motorcycle helmets are effective is also similar, yes at lower speeds, at over 100 mph hitting a solid object probably not!
Motorcycle helmet manufacturers are fortunate in that they sell a mandatory product so they don't really need to advertise the safety element. Their data is freely available though. Unlike cycling helmets.
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
Oh good grief! That sort of nonsense is often suggested by helmet believers but it has serious flaws in its logic. Picking one: it assumes the helmet doesn't itself increase the probability of impact. The simple test to demonstrate one aspect of how it might is: walk under a beam so low that your hair brushes it (or would brush it if you still had hair! :laugh: ) as you pass. Then put a helmet on and repeat the walk identically and enjoy the impact. Which hurt more? And I leave it up to you whether your head is likely to have a near-miss with something after you leave the bike in a collision.


No I bloody don't! I test them as I leave the parking space and generally decelerate/brake early when possible so that I have more time to deal with any unexpected failures or underperformance (or bizarre actions by other road users). Don't they teach people to check their brakes when they're learning to drive any more? If not, I can guess at a reason why so many more motorists seem to be demolishing inanimate objects!

That seems backwards: surely if you "believe in helmets" then no empirical evidence will change your attitude? Whereas if you are a scientist without beliefs about helmets either way, then you follow the evidence?

I can only suggest you duck under low beams. - but how about try walking under a low beam - say one ay eye level - then try it with a helmet on and see which you prefer.

So your the bugger that suddenly puts his brakes on, on a straight bit of road for no apparent reason, I just assumed the driver couldn't stand moving faster than 25mph , he's testing his brakes - makes sense now.

True the argument works both ways , if you believe you will believe despite the evidence , if you don't you won't despite the evidence.
 

Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
Wasn't there a recent group test (was it Which?) that found that the majority of the cycle helmets tested didn't actually meet the standards they claimed to?
 

Justinslow

Lovely jubbly
Location
Suffolk
Can i suggest that no one head butts a brick wall, with or without a helmet?

Can i also suggest that cycling isn't dangerous?
Can I suggest certain aspects of cycling are dangerous?
 

martint235

Dog on a bike
Location
Welling
Certain aspects of cycling are dangerous, whether you consider it sport or transport or leisure.......
As transport I struggle to see any inherent dangers. Throwing yourself off the side of a hill with just some knobbly tyres to keep you grounded is a different matter but then those guys/girls don't wear your bog standard cycling helmet either.
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
As transport I struggle to see any inherent dangers. Throwing yourself off the side of a hill with just some knobbly tyres to keep you grounded is a different matter but then those guys/girls don't wear your bog standard cycling helmet either.
You haven't noticed the traffic on your average road? - you don't regard 60ton artics on your elbow dangerous.
I think 110 people last year may not agree if they were alive to consider it.
 
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