The family shouted at the jury : “Were you not listening?”

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glenn forger

glenn forger

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People who use mobiles while driving either don't care about the law or don't think that it's dangerous or careless, so they are not best placed to a judge whether another person using a mobile at the wheel was being careless or dangerous.
 
I watched a programme a few years ago about US Juries and it was amazing ..... a simple trial can go through several hundred jurors before they settle on the final ones.

It was also unexpected objections as well

For instance a young black offender would NOT want a white jury, but would also object to middle aged or elderly black people on the Jury as they tend to be o the opinion thatthe community has been let down and therefore more likely to return a guilty verdict.

Firearms offences would not want ex-military jurors as they tended to be more responsible about gun ownership and be more likely to return guilty verdicts
 

oldstrath

Über Member
Location
Strathspey
Nobody is saying we don't exist, but a jury is a cross section of society not a star chamber of the legally and morally unimpeachable.

Doing the devils advocate thing: If you had people purposefully vetted against such (as they are seen in law) minor convictions as driving offences then maybe the defence would be more likely to raise objections to a jury that has insufficient experience on which to impartially try the case.

Has there been anything published that details the *criminal* history of this jury to merit the line of thinking that there are sufficient motoring felons amongst them to exert that mentality on deliberations and sway the decision?

That's precisely the problem. Describing criminal acts with a lethal weapon as 'minor' is ridiculous, even if it is the 'legal view'. Until this idiocy changes, killers who use cars will get away with it.
 
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glenn forger

glenn forger

Guest
Nobody is saying we don't exist, but a jury is a cross section of society not a star chamber of the legally and morally unimpeachable.

Doing the devils advocate thing: If you had people purposefully vetted against such (as they are seen in law) minor convictions as driving offences then maybe the defence would be more likely to raise objections to a jury that has insufficient experience on which to impartially try the case.

Has there been anything published that details the *criminal* history of this jury to merit the line of thinking that there are sufficient motoring felons amongst them to exert that mentality on deliberations and sway the decision?

The "minor" criminal acts you refer to killed eleven people last year, almost certainly many more.. We know that using a mobile effects driving to the same degree as being drunk
 
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slowmotion

Quite dreadful
Location
lost somewhere
I'm not a nun (nor even the more physically achievable monk), but if you are really correct that a jury of people without a history of motoring convictions is 'impractical ', that is sad. What I think likelier is that most of us have internalised the idea that bad driving, even though it has more potential to kill than many other criminal acts, is not 'really' criminal. Which is even sadder.
Fine. Polish your halo.

BTW, is a speeding conviction a criminal act?

EDIT: From a quick peek, probably.http://www.findlaw.co.uk/law/motoring/vehicle_crime/500320.html
 
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shouldbeinbed

Rollin' along
Location
Manchester way
That's precisely the problem. Describing criminal acts with a lethal weapon as 'minor' is ridiculous, even if it is the 'legal view'. Until this idiocy changes, killers who use cars will get away with it.
It may be ridiculous but unfortunately here and now it is factually accurate. I don't disagree at all that the law for random acts of inadequate and negligent driving leading to killing with a car is monumentally unjust to us squishy road users and our loved ones in terms of charges inevitably brought & punishment/revenge outcomes available, as opposed to say wandering through a crowded shopping centre with a partly loaded revolver and randomly pulling the trigger.
 
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glenn forger

glenn forger

Guest
It may be ridiculous but unfortunately here and now it is factually accurate. .

It's not remotely factually accurate, every one of us is more likely to be killed by a driver on a mobile than by a terrorist.
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
Nobody is saying we don't exist, but a jury is a cross section of society not a star chamber of the legally and morally unimpeachable.

Doing the devils advocate thing: If you had people purposefully vetted against such (as they are seen in law) minor convictions as driving offences then maybe the defence would be more likely to raise objections to a jury that has insufficient experience on which to impartially try the case.

Has there been anything published that details the *criminal* history of this jury to merit the line of thinking that there are sufficient motoring felons amongst them to exert that mentality on deliberations and sway the decision?

The problem is that you can't expect a jury stuffed full of motoring convictions to be in some way more impartial. Quite the reverse, I'd argue: there are no shortage of motorists with speeding convictions who will claim until they're blue in the face that they were "hard done by" and will bring this attitude with them, whether it be conscious or not. They'll use the same weak justifications to excuse their own behaviour to excuse the accused - no matter what the facts are. As has already been commented, this leads to the normalisation of the idea that piss poor driving is normal and excusable. Perhaps barring people with motoring convictions from jury service for motoring offences would be a good first step into reinforcing the idea that this is not acceptable. After all, that motoring conviction has already demonstrated that this person has questionable judgement in such matters - how can someone with such poor judgement be expected to be even remotely objective?
 
Do away with the jury system in its current form entirely. Have professionally trained, legally educated jurors as a profession and use them instead. Alternatively a panel of 3 judges.

In the current system jurors can be too easily swayed, too easily confused with difficult legal points, and will almost always bring their own prejudices.
 
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glenn forger

glenn forger

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this is from hissingsid from the BTL comments:

The following are matters of public record, having been heard within the trial.

There is a time period of 80 seconds between the last use of SINDEN’S phone, and the time of the report to Kent Police of the collision. This does not account for time spent with the BT operator, which could not be ascertained by the police investigators.

SINDEN gave an account to police in interview during which he stated that he drove from his mother’s house, to the junction with Station Road, where he turned right. He emphatically denied using his mobile phone past the junction, having thrown it onto his passenger seat. He further stated that objects within his van fell onto the phone, and clearly suggested that those items caused the activations on his phone.

SINDEN’S legal position was maintained up until the trial. During the trial, an expert demonstrated that the phone activations suggested by SINDEN were highly unlikely.

The exact time of the collision was unknown, and could not be proved.

Daniel was visible from 150 - 160 metres away; certainly within 55 metres.

Daniel was wearing black/dark blue cycling clothing, but he was wearing shorts and his lower legs would have been light in colour and more visible, particularly as they were moving.

The Highway Code says the stopping distance at 40mph is 36 metres

The speed of SINDEN’S vehicle could not be scientifically proved at any time.

SINDEN stopped his vehicle 125 metres past the collision scene.

There was no forensic evidence presented to the jury by the defence that proved that Daniel Squire had been on the kerb. The prosecutor raised the question, and the jury was directed to consider by the judge, whether an experienced rider such as Daniel would have attempted to ride on a footpath that was about one foot wide, was overgrown, and strewn with debris. There were no marks in the mud leading to the footpath, nor marks in the debris or muddy tyre marks on the path.

At no time, before the trial, did SINDEN explain to the police that Daniel rode off of the kerb into the road. In fact, he stated to several witnesses at the scene that he simply ‘did not see’ Daniel. In one account he even stated that Daniel swerved out in front of him, apparently to avoid a drain cover, and that he (SINDEN) had swerved to try to avoid him but was unable to do so.

When SINDEN hit Daniel, he was 0.67 metres away from the kerb; so how close was SINDEN to the kerb before he swerved? Even the defence expert stated that Daniel should have been seen by SINDEN, assuming that he had been in the road, and not coming off the path.

Apparently, at no point before the trial, did SINDEN tell the police that he stopped in a layby to send and receive texts. The time he says he spent in the layby conveniently accounts mathematically for time that he could not previously account for. The judge drew the attention of the jury to this fact during her summing up.

What is clear is this; SINDEN presented an explanation to the police that investigations indicated he was using his phone at or immediately before the collision. Once he was faced with evidence IN COURT that indicated that his explanation of the phone activation (by articles on his seat) was unlikely, he decided to change his story. He then admitted in court that he HAD been using his mobile phone, but that he had been doing so further down the road, but not at the time of the collision.

The judge accurately summed up all of the evidence presented by the CPS, and drew the attention of the jury to the changes in SINDEN’S account. She was explicit about the timings and distances involved.

Many have commented about the CPS lawyer, what about the defence? They simply presented several ‘what if’s?’ to the jury, and then sat back. They knew what couldn’t be proved, and so threw as much mud around as possible to confuse the jury. The defence lawyer was spoken to by the judge several times because of his behaviour, and he was blatantly dishonest when he told the jury that the CPS had put in an extra charge of careless driving because the police weren’t sure of their case; in fact the judge put the extra charge in following a legal ruling from another case. But it sounds good doesn’t it?

The article at https://beyondthekerb.wordpress.com/2015/03/21/somethings-not-quite-right-here/is pretty accurate, apart from the timing (80 seconds, not 55) and the punctuation (no full stops between the words in the text). But the issue here is that SINDEN was caught by his own story, and then changed it in court to account for the timings. It seems that all of the questions raised by BTK were dealt with in court.

In fact, all of the questions raised here on KoL were presented to the court; the jury simply had to do as the judge told them and apply some common sense. And there, perhaps, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, lies the problem.
 
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