The fine line between motivation and being a tyrant

[User76022]

My main cycling buddy is, how to say politely? Erm, blessed with an over abundance of stored energy. He weighs in at over 17 stone.

He would like to slim down somewhat. And is making a solid effort to do so. I have the honour (genuine honour, he is one of my best mates) of helping with this, while at the same time also working on my own fitness and physique. All good.

While I am overweight, I have less, Erm, stored energy than my friend. This combined with a longer term record of physical training in other disciplines as well as cycling means I'm naturally faster than my friend. Although I don't leave him behind because I think there's little less motivational than being left behind.

So when we ride out, which is several times per week, I tend to subtly ride at such a pace that I know he can just about maintain, even if sometimes that means he makes some awful snorting and gasping noises. It is paying off.

However yesterday there was a bit of a wake up when we were about 10 miles from home. After pushing ourselves against a head wind and up hills, I realised my mate was spent. I was genuinely starting to think that he wouldn't have the energy to pedal home. For much of the ride back we were just about managing walking pace.

What suddenly dawned on me, and worried me slightly, is that we're not kids anymore. Mid 40s is not old, but mid 40s and substantially overweight must be a risk factor.

So I got to thinking. Me subtly pushing him to his limits might be a bit of a gamble. The prize being that he continues to shed the pounds and get fitter. But if it goes bad, it goes very, very bad.

So I'm wondering, if anyone has any advice or guidance on continuing with the fitness regime, but without crossing the line and becoming a tyrant. Or to put another way, how to stay on the right side of the line between positive encouragement and progress, and pushing too hard and putting people at risk.

 

[tyred]

Only his doctor can examine him and give an educated answer on that.

 

[alicat]

I've always understood that the way to burn stored energy/fat is to ride for a long time at an easy pace. Riding at full pace just depletes carbohydrates.

 

[User76022]

I've always understood that the way to burn stored energy/fat is to ride for a long time at an easy pace. Riding at full pace just depletes carbohydrates.

We don't constantly go full tilt. It is a steady pace, but it's a steady pace that pushes quite hard. So that the muscles are under constant load. We put bursts of 100% in though, for some hill climbs and a few sprints.

These aren't workouts as such. They are leisure rides. But we do push for fitness and conditioning. Sounds contradictory but I can't think how else to explain it.

With regard to the science of fat burn, as I understand it most explanations are oversimplified. Many factors are at work. As I understand it:

1. You have to expend more energy than you consume. Calories in vs calories out. Exercise gives us the opportunity to expend some of that energy. For a given amount of time, the harder you ride, the greater the distance covered, and the greater the calorie expenditure.

From this point on it gets slightly less well publicised.

2. The body is fantastic. It somehow manages to make the most efficient use of energy. Take muscles to the point of total fatigue and the chemicals coarsing round the blood in response will actually continue the fat burn even during rest, as fat is broken down to release energy to replenish the muscles.

3. Muscles that are fully fatigued regenerate stronger with more mass. Muscle is metabolically active, meaning that they consume energy even at rest, meaning more of your calories in go to just maintaining your weight rather than being stored as fat.

4. Rest is absolutely essential for healthy weight loss. As is proper nutrition. Without both, you just become ground down. Hence the shorter duration but harder rides.

5. When an activity becomes 'normal', your body adapts to it. Weight loss then becomes difficult because your appetite adjusts to the higher demand. High intensity exercise shocks the body and suppresses the appetite.

All of this said, there's one thing I've noticed that doesn't seem so well documented That is that it's different for everyone. What works well for one person doesn't work at all for another. Hence the importance of monitoring progress. My mate and I are both constantly getting fitter and losing weight. But we're always open to input from others if that might improve things.

 

[si_c]

I've always understood that the way to burn stored energy/fat is to ride for a long time at an easy pace. Riding at full pace just depletes carbohydrates.

Yes and no. Your body will use a higher proportion of fat for fuel when you are riding at a lower pace, but a really high intensity ride will ultimately burn significantly more calories than a low pace, and despite you using far more carbohydrate, you will also be burning a lot (probably more) fat.

Your body will compensate for the intensity by burning the appropriate fuel, and will recover that glycogen later from stored fat if necessary. As I understand it the best way to lose weight through cycling is to do a mix of medium and high intensity efforts.

@User76022 it might be better to vary your pace on different rides depending on the conditions - it sounds like you need to learn how to let your friend pace himself when the weather is particularly grim or the road hilly. Aside from not making him blow up it will likely result in a more enjoyable ride.

As a side note it might be worth introducing your friend to an indoor trainer and Zwift - that way he could do the high intensity rides that will help burn calories and build fitness and then collapse on the couch afterwards with little risk of failing to make it home. That way you could separate the fitness/training element of the rides from the leisure element.

 

[Drago]

Im single minded to the point of downright bloody mindedness once I've set a goal for myself, but I dont inflict it on others. Do what you think is right for you, and them 5% more so you push yourself but not to the point of doing damage.

As for your lightweight chum, have an honest but sensitive chat about how you are chuffed to bits with his encouragement, but you're lagging behind - if he's half the mate you think he is he'll be cool.

 

[PK99]

Yes and no. Your body will use a higher proportion of fat for fuel when you are riding at a lower pace, but a really high intensity ride will ultimately burn significantly more calories than a low pace, and despite you using far more carbohydrate, you will also be burning a lot (probably more) fat.

.

You are correct.

But.

If I have an hour for a ride, 15 min warm up, 30 min flat out, 15 min spin home, is better than an hour steady state.

If I have 3-4 hours for a ride, steady-state throughout is best for conditioning.

 

[si_c]

You are correct.

But.

If I have an hour for a ride, 15 min warm up, 30 min flat out, 15 min spin home, is better than an hour steady state.

If I have 3-4 hours for a ride, steady-state throughout is best for conditioning.

Absolutely, my point, if poorly articulated was that one shouldn't just ride flat out and that mixing ride types will result in an overall better experience.

 

[User76022]

Im single minded to the point of downright bloody mindedness once I've set a goal for myself, but I dont inflict it on others. Do what you think is right for you, and them 5% more so you push yourself but not to the point of doing damage.

As for your lightweight chum, have an honest but sensitive chat about how you are chuffed to bits with his encouragement, but you're lagging behind - if he's half the mate you think he is he'll be cool.

I know my opening post looked like an 'I have a friend' type thing, but it really is my friend who is struggling and me that is borderline tyrant lol.

But I take on board what you're saying.

My mate won't have that tactful word with me. He is stubborn as a mule, and proud to a fault. There have been occasions where genuinely I've had to fake exhaustion and stop for a rest, just because I know he won't give up and his breathing is genuinely alarming. Once I actually thought if we keep going he may well collapse and possibly die. I asked if he was OK. He grunted and nodded and kept going. So I said I need to stop, knowing he would then stop to ensure I was OK.

He is a chap that worries too much about how other people perceive him. I couldn't give a stuff. I am who I am. But he tries to prove himself against some unattainable benchmark. Its great that he's so determined and its great that I have the honour of riding with him, but it's also a bit scary because I don't want to be part of him burning out.

 

[classic33]

Attempting too much too soon?

 

[PK99]

I know my opening post looked like an 'I have a friend' type thing, but it really is my friend who is struggling and me that is borderline tyrant lol.

But I take on board what you're saying.

My mate won't have that tactful word with me. He is stubborn as a mule, and proud to a fault. There have been occasions where genuinely I've had to fake exhaustion and stop for a rest, just because I know he won't give up and his breathing is genuinely alarming. Once I actually thought if we keep going he may well collapse and possibly die. I asked if he was OK. He grunted and nodded and kept going. So I said I need to stop, knowing he would then stop to ensure I was OK.

He is a chap that worries too much about how other people perceive him. I couldn't give a stuff. I am who I am. But he tries to prove himself against some unattainable benchmark. Its great that he's so determined and its great that I have the honour of riding with him, but it's also a bit scary because I don't want to be part of him burning out.

A pattern I have recommended here previously - and used with Mrs PK when she signed up for a hilly sportive despite only ever having done towpath rides:
The stronger rider should over gear on hills and undergear on the flat. that way each gets a good workout without the weaker rider feeling they are holding back the stronger.

 

[PaulSB]

If you're cycling buddy has what sounds like a lot of stored energy he should look at diet and lifestyle before worrying too much about speed, fitness etc.

Clearly exercise is good but it's no substitute for eating correctly and understanding the food sources one's body uses best.

I can introduce you to plenty of cyclists who ride regularly and never shift weight. Ask them what they have for breakfast and lunch in particular and the answer is obvious. I had better add to this I've shifted 16kg in 22 months. The early kilos are easy, the last few to target weight are very hard. I still have 2.5kg to go.

 

[alicat]

If it's not fun (and it sounds like it's not if he is bonking), your friend will crack physically or mentally at some point.

To be blunt, you are risking your friend having a heart attack or deciding that enough is enough and cycling is not for him. None of us can make the call how and when that will happen.

 

[screenman]

Do you ride side by side?

 

[PaulSB]

@User76022 I've just read your opening post for a second time. The relevant words are "mid 40s and substantially overweight must be a risk factor."

It isn't a risk, it's almost a certainty excess weight will lead to health problems of some sort. I believed I lead a healthy life, reasonably active at work but with more sedentary time than I realised, poor diet but I thought it was a healthy one till I understood foods, stopped smoking, walked and cycled a lot. I had a heart attack three years ago - everyone I know was astonished "but you're so fit" was the general response.

You have said "substantially overweight." I would urge anyone who has admitted this to frankly and honestly review their lifestyle. You may be very surprised. I'm sure some will disagree with me but I suggest channeling your efforts in to lifestyle and cycle for pleasure will give the greater gain - well loss really!

Begin by keeping a food diary of everything you eat and drink for a week. Be totally honest in this. Next understand the impact on the body of what you eat, the foods which are truly beneficial and those which at best give you nothing and more likely add to the problem. You may be very surprised.

At 61 I was fit, pretty good for my age and lifestyle. Certainly fitter than many of my friends. The consultant told me my fitness saved me, my lifestyle gave me a heart attack.

Three years on I'm fitter, lighter (16kg), eat better, ride further, climb better, ride faster than when i was in my 30s. I'm regularly out and stay with fellow riders 20-30 years younger. Yes it's difficult for me sometimes, yes they could probably smash me if they tried but I can hang in there.

I was cycling when I had my heart attack. No chest pain, just some discomfort at the back of my ribcage and I lost my energy and pace. Speed dropped by 50% and I thought I'd bonked. I carried on riding for 8-10 miles to a railway station and caught the train home. I felt much better at home but after a shower and a cup of tea literally said to my wife "You know I'm 61 and something odd has happened. Think I'll pop down to A&E" Within two minutes of arriving, literally, I was hooked up to monitors being treated for suspected heart attack, 40 minutes later diagnosed. Be careful bonking may hide something more sinister.

Please consider this aspect and don't pin everything on riding a bike. It won't work in the longer term.

Fitness does not necessarily equate to being healthy though it definitely helps!