this is nothing to do with cycling, but important none the less

[ColinJ]

How much money have you got, Martin? It's just that I am very skint at the moment, so I am trying to see if it is worth the effort to devise an elaborate plan to rip you off!

 

[martint235]

How much money have you got, Martin? It's just that I am very skint at the moment, so I am trying to see if it is worth the effort to devise an elaborate plan to rip you off!

Not that much but feel free to give it a go. You never know I could fall for an energy drink scam at the moment. I fell for the arm warmers scam recently and that's well publicised.

 

[Wobblers]

A scammer has used their intelligence to persuade you that you want something they have and that you're willing to pay for. That's just the same as Tesco convincing you that their baked beans are better than Asda's.

As for the little old lady, is there a time when you become incapable of thinking "Ooh maybe there's something wrong with my roof, maybe I should get a second quote"? I'm not including physical intimidation here as that's just an element of force.

Martin, you're talking bollocks. If a scammer is smart enough to outwit someone, he's smart enough to get a job and do a honest day's work. And while you may think you're smart, the fact is that there are no shortage of people who are cleverer than you. Does that mean it's fine for them to help themselves to your money? This is a very unsympathetic attitude to say the least. I suspect it would change if it were you that were the victim.

PS: I've got this very fine bridge for sale: to you, special mate's rate...

 

[stephec]

I can't quote the OED without subscribing to their site, but this will have to do from freedictionary.com -

con 4 (k

n) Slang
tr.v. conned, con·ning, cons
To swindle (a victim) by first winning his or her confidence; dupe.
n.
A swindle.
adj.
Of, relating to, or involving a swindle or fraud: a con artist; a con job.
[Short for confidence.]


You'll notice the words, 'swindle,' and, 'victim,' in the definition.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

As for the little old lady, is there a time when you become incapable of thinking "Ooh maybe there's something wrong with my roof, maybe I should get a second quote"?

Yes. Why do you think the elderly are so often the victims of con men?

Many elderly people are too trusting and will part with money for unneccessary roof work, or fall for the old invisible goods fraud or any other scam perpetrated on them. They don't go out looking to get ripped off, they are targetted by criminals who seek to take advantage of them. Pensioners are often isolated from the wider community, have no realtives close to hand, and aren't always savvy enough to spot a fraudster (mental faculties fade with age). Criminals seek them out, befriend them, gain their confidence and then exploit their vulnerability to steal as much of their money as possible.

Email scams are just another avenue of attack.

If you or your elderly relatives never find yourselves in that position then you should thank your good fortune.


GC

 

[martint235]

Martin, you're talking bollocks. If a scammer is smart enough to outwit someone, he's smart enough to get a job and do a honest day's work. And while you may think you're smart, the fact is that there are no shortage of people who are cleverer than you. Does that mean it's fine for them to help themselves to your money? This is a very unsympathetic attitude to say the least. I suspect it would change if it were you that were the victim.

PS: I've got this very fine bridge for sale: to you, special mate's rate...

But people do help themselves to my money all the time. They convince me they've got something I want. Now in some cases I come out of the transaction feeling I've got value for money but quite often I don't. I know it's unsympathetic but I'm kind of sympathy'd out at the moment.

And if you convinced me you'd got a bridge to sell and I gave you the money for it, would you give me the money back? No. Didn't think so.

 

[martint235]

I can't quote the OED without subscribing to their site, but this will have to do from freedictionary.com -

con 4 (k

n) Slang
tr.v. conned, con·ning, cons
To swindle (a victim) by first winning his or her confidence; dupe.
n.
A swindle.
adj.
Of, relating to, or involving a swindle or fraud: a con artist; a con job.
[Short for confidence.]


You'll notice the words, 'swindle,' and, 'victim,' in the definition.

So to go back to one particular con , the Nigerian money. Where is the "winning his or her confidence" in that?

A lot of cons only work because of the greed of the "victim". "I'm getting something at a really good price", "I'm getting a deal here", "I'm getting one over on the person selling"

 

[ColinJ]

You might as well be saying 'kill the old and feeble, for they are not up to the task of surviving in this dog eat dog world we have created'!

There is an elderly woman living a few doors from me. She hardly sees her family, and her husband died decades ago, but she soldiers on. She is in her 90s but still walks to the shops occasionally, very slowly. I am quite sure that it would not be difficult for even a barely competent con artist to deprive her of her life savings. Does she really 'have it coming' to her?

 

[Wobblers]

But people do help themselves to my money all the time. They convince me they've got something I want. Now in some cases I come out of the transaction feeling I've got value for money but quite often I don't. I know it's unsympathetic but I'm kind of sympathy'd out at the moment.

And if you convinced me you'd got a bridge to sell and I gave you the money for it, would you give me the money back? No. Didn't think so.

You're conflating a commercial transaction, where both sides have full knowledge of what is being offered and a con, where one side is going to great lengths to conceal and obfuscate the fact the other party will receive little in return. That is rather silly. When you buy something in a shop, there is no intent to defraud you - and there is a large amount of consumer law to support you. And just because someone is greedy, that does not mean that they automatically lose the right not to be conned.

And of course I wouldn't give you your money back. After all, I'll have used my intelligence to persuade you to part with your cash. But you're fine with that, aren't you?

 

[martint235]

You might as well be saying 'kill the old and feeble, for they are not up to the task of surviving in this dog eat dog world we have created'!

There is an elderly woman living a few doors from me. She hardly sees her family, and her husband died decades ago, but she soldiers on. She is in her 90s but still walks to the shops occasionally, very slowly. I am quite sure that it would not be difficult for even a barely competent con artist to deprive her of her life savings. Does she really 'have it coming' to her?

You're conflating a commercial transaction, where both sides have full knowledge of what is being offered and a con, where one side is going to great lengths to conceal and obfuscate the fact the other party will receive little in return. That is rather silly. When you buy something in a shop, there is no intent to defraud you - and there is a large amount of consumer law to support you. And just because someone is greedy, that does not mean that they automatically lose the right not to be conned.

And of course I wouldn't give you your money back. After all, I'll have used my intelligence to persuade you to part with your cash. But you're fine with that, aren't you?

So maybe we need to look after our elderly better. At what point does advertising become fraud? Let's go back to my dear old dad. He reads a newspaper advertisement for a gizmo that will convert all his records to digital files and store them in 3cm x 3cm box. This costs £500. All he has to do is call an 0800 number. He does this and it is obvious to the person on the other end of the phone that my dad is as deaf as a post. But the sale goes through anyway. Do we prosecute the company for fraud? They have after all taken advantage of my father by selling him something that is patently no use to him. However consumer law says that the device does exactly what it says on the tin and is not faulty in any way.

 

[martint235]

And just because someone is greedy, that does not mean that they automatically lose the right not to be conned.

And of course I wouldn't give you your money back. After all, I'll have used my intelligence to persuade you to part with your cash. But you're fine with that, aren't you?

If you lose money through your own greed, sorry but tough. Otherwise we'll have to refund everyone who ever lost anything on the stock market.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

Sorry.. but
If anyone really falls for these things then they deserve all they get.

Agreed - why anyone opens these things is beyond me.

Currently we are currently getting a slew of HMRC and Companies House ones at the moment.

 

[Wobblers]

There does seem to be a... certain lack of empathy from some people. Just because you know the ins and outs of computing, it doesn't necessarily follow that everyone has the same level of knowledge. Especially when you consider that most operating systems are now designed so that the internals are hidden from view. That is why Microsoft (spit!) have this very silly default of hiding file extensions. Not to mention that not everyone knows the difference between a .jpg and a .exe file. You can't assume that everyone has heard of trojans or SQL injection attacks.

To be blunt, it's victim blaming. An activity that rightly has been condemned elsewhere on this forum with regards to the FTA blaming cyclists. The very same principles apply here.

 

[Wobblers]

So maybe we need to look after our elderly better. At what point does advertising become fraud? Let's go back to my dear old dad. He reads a newspaper advertisement for a gizmo that will convert all his records to digital files and store them in 3cm x 3cm box. This costs £500. All he has to do is call an 0800 number. He does this and it is obvious to the person on the other end of the phone that my dad is as deaf as a post. But the sale goes through anyway. Do we prosecute the company for fraud? They have after all taken advantage of my father by selling him something that is patently no use to him. However consumer law says that the device does exactly what it says on the tin and is not faulty in any way.

One phrase: "distance selling regulations". You can send it back within 7 days for a full refund. And this is exactly why these regulations were brought in.

 

[martint235]

One phrase: "distance selling regulations". You can send it back within 7 days for a full refund. And this is exactly why these regulations were brought in.

So because he's a busy elderly bloke he doesn't try to play with the gizmo for 10 days after he opened it. He's still been sold something by someone who knew the product would be useless to him, do we do the company for fraud?