presta
Legendary Member
Today's news is Matthew Barber, Thames Valley Police & Crime Commissioner, criticising the public for not intervening when they see shoplifters.
Thoughts on Cycling Mikey
- Thread starter Lightning CycleQueen
- Start date
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fossyant
Ride It Like You Stole It!
- Location
- South Manchester
The thing is, this latest video is all over the press, Times, Telegraph, not just the gutter press. Rightly or wrongly, all say Mikey pushed his bike into the path of a moving car. It's got the wrong publicity and is not helping vulnerable road users. This driver is a wrong un, could have been far worse. Only needs to get one slightly more angry driver and he could get badly injured. Better to film and report.
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
There is a difference between acting to prevent immediate and clear danger to others (or yourself), and acting to prevent lawbreaking in itself.
The first falls into the category of self-defence (even if it is others you are actually defending), while without that factor, it becomes vigilanteism.
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
Actually mainly criticising shop staff for not intervening.
Mo1959
Legendary Member
- Location
- Perthshire,Scotland
Can’t say I blame them these days. Customers could turn violent and you end up getting assaulted. Who, on minimum wage or not much more, wants to put themselves in harms way for that.
matticus
Guru
But as I said, this is lawbreaking that creates a danger to others. That's why the laws are there.
(I can't see anything wrong with preventing danger to others in this way. I presume you think vigilantism is a bad thing? )
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
That is not the same thing though. A generalised danger is not the same at al as somebody specific being in immediate danger.
Yes, I do.
And generally, so does law enforcement.
matticus
Guru
And yet they seem very happy with Mikey reporting all this law-breaking. How do you square that circle?
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
Perhaps you need to actually read what I wrote above (post #70).
Reporting to law enforcement is not remotely the same as taking the law into your own hands.
I have sent videos into operation snap myself, and will do so again if and when I get another action camera ( the one I had died about 18 months ago and I haven't got around to replacing it).
matticus
Guru
(I did read your post - in fact it's the one I first replied to! Perhaps it wasn't very clear. So it would be helpful to actually answer my question, or just conduct the conversation in a normal manner. Do you discuss matters in real-life in this style? Anyway, moving on ...)
Are you aware of the Police saying anything negative about Mikey "taking the law into his own hands"? Nothing he's done - at least before this odd bike-throwing incident! - seems to have harmed a soul, or indeed property. Or upset anyone who wasn't already breaking the law. And he's almost always stopping them doing something dangerous.
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
Well then why did you ask that question?
I made it quite clear in that post that I thought reporting to the police was absolutely fine.
I'm not aware of the police saying anything about Cycling Mikey specifically, positive or negative.
But this is a general article on the subject of vigilanteism from the police federation
https://www.police-foundation.org.u...n-citizens-take-the-law-into-their-own-hands/
markemark
Veteran
Depends what you mean by vigilanty.
I can see
1. Preventing a crime that is taking place. Using reasonable force to do so.
2. Preventing a crime that is taking place. Using UNreasonable force to do so.
3. Punishing a suspected criminal for a crime
4. Targeting people suspected of crimes but not in the process of committing a crime.
I suspect there are others. And I suspect the law treats the above differently.
I can see
1. Preventing a crime that is taking place. Using reasonable force to do so.
2. Preventing a crime that is taking place. Using UNreasonable force to do so.
3. Punishing a suspected criminal for a crime
4. Targeting people suspected of crimes but not in the process of committing a crime.
I suspect there are others. And I suspect the law treats the above differently.
Alex321
Guru
- Location
- South Wales
It does.
1 Is generally OK, though it should be noted that in the UK, "citizen's arrest" is only allowed for indictable offences, and I suspect that using ANY level of force would be treated in much the same way, although stopping the commission of a crime isn't quite the same as arresting somebody for it.
2 Is of course pretty well always illegal, as is 3.
4 Depends rather on what is meant here by "targeting". Anything more than reporting (with or without video or photographic evidence) would come under 3.
markemark
Veteran
The current case of the man who exposed himself on the tube and was detained by passengers until an off duty office arrested him. People seem up in arms that some of passengers who stopped him are being investigated for assault. The media seems to have skimmed over the part that some people gave him a good kicking and beating whilst he was on the ground. This was would be 2, 3. And if found it is true then I hope assault charges are brought.
The media or commentators often seem to be under the impression it is #1 when the reality and further investigation shows it is 2,3,4. This is either as new information comes to light or the media willfully edit the story.
The media or commentators often seem to be under the impression it is #1 when the reality and further investigation shows it is 2,3,4. This is either as new information comes to light or the media willfully edit the story.
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matticus
Guru
Bit weird - choosing an article that is almost entirely about paedophile hunters:
"Ahead of the Police Foundation’s annual conference on Policing and the Public, Ruth Halkon examines the rise of vigilantism (or so-called paedophile hunters) and explores what motivates the public to take the law into their own hands.
The vexed question of what role the public should play in fighting crime is again dominating the headlines after a sharp rise in the number of prosecutions involving evidence from “paedophile hunters”. According to the BBC, the number of grooming cases brought to trial through the involvement of vigilante groups has more than tripled in two years. Last year, more than half of the 403 people prosecuted for attempting to meet a child following sexual grooming were charged using evidence from these groups. In some forces, vigilante groups influenced 100 per cent of cases."
